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  1. #51
    Senior Member Opal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Yeah, I'm not talking about detached feedback. I'm talking about unsolicited, obnoxious 'I'm better than you' quips that never end. Or worse, the actual conviction that this is the case and the 'sound' arguments they present on this front, entirely believing their own bullshit.

    It's one thing to offer detached, unpersonal, unvarnished feedback - and preferably only when requested to do so, tbh, but depending on the context, it can be useful when unsolicited as well though risky - it is another to take someone down coz you need a release valve for your frustrations that you deny having coz you're so logical and you don't like them, so therefore they should learn their proper place, or whatever the justification is.

    Everyone has some doubts, fears and stressors that can cause us to act out - it just often seems to come out in NTs in this way.

    For the record, Im a big fan of your breed - I don't want that to get lost in the process of this discussion.
    I get the sense your perspective comes from a specific incident (or three). I can imagine NTs opening fire on someone doing something illogical, but I haven't often observed it. The person or people in question sound(s) very unhealthy. Personal attacks aren't something I associate with NTs.

  2. #52
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by solipsists View Post
    I get the sense your perspective comes from a specific incident (or three). I can imagine NTs opening fire on someone doing something illogical, but I haven't often observed it. The person or people in question sound(s) very unhealthy. Personal attacks aren't something I associate with NTs.
    On this board alone, it happened non-stop - moreso when this was still an INTP-shoot off, back in the day. Hell, just look at INTP-Central or whatever place they moved to. It's not just one incident, but sure, for me it holds personal baggage due to the fact that Ive been on the receiving end of that kind of 'damage'. I lived with it, and its justifications and dismissals my entire life as my immediate family is made up of three NTs (and Im sure they could enter a plethora of feedback in the NF-version of this due to me).

    Incidentally, I also currently bed an NT who isn't like that - I know it aint *all* of you. But *some* of you are like that. Consider it a piece of feedback. What you do with it, and whether it applies to you or not, I'll leave to you.

    Oh and personal attacks which are veiled as detached observations is something i *very much* associate with NTs. Especially of the 'I'm smarter than you and I need to rub your face in it' variety as that is the thing they often use to gauge someone's 'worth'. I get it, intelligence is their yardstick and what they're often proud of, so they use it as a yardstick on everyone else - even when that person doesn't invest their identity in that part of them. And somehow, them not focusing on those same things (like Sheldon in the Big Bang Theory: 'its not that you're bad at what you do, it's the fact that what you do isn't worth doing.') makes it justifiable to bust their balls for it and treat them as second class citizens. And some of them have made this kind of insulting into an art.
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  3. #53
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by solipsists View Post
    I can imagine NTs opening fire on someone doing something illogical, but I haven't often observed it.
    I do this myself from time to time. Hardly ever on strangers; usually I at least know the person, and have some stake in what is going on. It is related to the frustration I mentioned earlier. I try to be constructive in these situations, and never claim to be better than the other person, but might say things like "You did WHAT? That's just dumb. A schoolkid would know better," etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Oh and personal attacks which are veiled as detached observations is something i *very much* associate with NTs. Especially of the 'I'm smarter than you and I need to rub your face in it' variety as that is the thing they often use to gauge someone's 'worth'. I get it, intelligence is their yardstick and what they're often proud of, so they use it as a yardstick on everyone else - even when that person doesn't invest their identity in that part of them. And somehow, them not focusing on those same things (like Sheldon in the Big Bang Theory: 'its not that you're bad at what you do, it's the fact that what you do isn't worth doing.') makes it justifiable to bust their balls for it and treat them as second class citizens. And some of them have made this kind of insulting into an art.
    Oh, good grief. I have to own up to this one, too, in a way. It usually matters much less to me what someone's actual skill or knowledge level is as long as he/she is working at it and trying to improve. That presupposes a desire to do so, however, and it is the lack of such desire that I find the greatest failing.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  4. #54
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Oh and personal attacks which are veiled as detached observations is something i *very much* associate with NTs. Especially of the 'I'm smarter than you and I need to rub your face in it' variety as that is the thing they often use to gauge someone's 'worth'. I get it, intelligence is their yardstick and what they're often proud of, so they use it as a yardstick on everyone else - even when that person doesn't invest their identity in that part of them. And somehow, them not focusing on those same things (like Sheldon in the Big Bang Theory: 'its not that you're bad at what you do, it's the fact that what you do isn't worth doing.') makes it justifiable to bust their balls for it and treat them as second class citizens. And some of them have made this kind of insulting into an art.
    I get this sort of attitude when people try to compete with me(usually intellectually), but are not equipped to do that. Its nice that NFs dont often try to compete or prove that they are better than me and therefore i dont have to give them this sort of treatment. I mean i get kicks out of putting people down who think that they are more than they actually are and try to act big because of that, think they know when they dont(and argue about it) etc.

    ps. sheldon is an INTJ, if you compare him to leonard or amy who are INTPs, you can see a pretty different attitude. and yes, sheldon doesent represent all NTJs and leonard and amy doesent represent all INTPs
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
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  5. #55
    Senior Member Ene's Avatar
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    I only know one INTJ in my everyday offline world. He is my Bagau Zhang master. We work together very closely. We talk on the phone everyday and train together anywhere from three to six hours a week. I help him with his books and articles, as well. He sometimes confides in me, like when he decided to leave his wife. Sometimes he calls me just to ask me how to cook something or to tell me that he bested someone in a debate. The thing I like most about him is that he is rarely "ruffled". I like that he has a sense of humor that I relate to. I guess the thing I like least about him (I "hate" nothing about him. He is a fantastic INTJ cognitive specimen as far as I can tell) is that he has what I can only call a "need" to debunk other's teachings and theories, to find wholes in their systems and ideologies and tear them apart with a gleam in his eyes. He often seems oblivious to the effect that it has on them either positively or negatively.

    I really want him to think highly of me. I strongly value his opinion on things and am always flabbergasted when he asks for mine. He never says anyone is unworthy, yet I am compelled to have him trust me and consider me as worthy. Of what? His friendship, I suppose. I like being his confidant, the one he shares the inside joke with. He tells me that I have an analytical, organized mind. I don't know if he thinks that's bad or good or neutral.

    Also, just for the record, he has a horrible sense of fashion, loves exotic art (doesn't paint, just appreciates it.) he is a minimalist and values efficiency and logic, but also values his own intuition. He enjoys stimulating and intellectual conversations and mental challenges. He likes a little bit of mystery, too.
    A student said to his master: "You teach me fighting, but you talk about peace. How do you reconcile the two?" The master replied: "It is better to be a warrior in a garden than to be a gardener in a war." - unknown/Chinese

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=61024&page=14

  6. #56
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ene View Post
    I guess the thing I like least about him (I "hate" nothing about him. He is a fantastic INTJ cognitive specimen as far as I can tell) is that he has what I can only call a "need" to debunk other's teachings and theories, to find wholes in their systems and ideologies and tear them apart with a gleam in his eyes. He often seems oblivious to the effect that it has on them either positively or negatively.
    Freudian slip?

    I share this "need". Sometimes I can discern the effect on others after the fact, but rarely soon enough to stop me in my tracks, which would be rather hard in any case.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  7. #57
    Senior Member Ene's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Freudian slip?

    I share this "need". Sometimes I can discern the effect on others after the fact, but rarely soon enough to stop me in my tracks, which would be rather hard in any case.
    Eek, it would appear so concerning the slip. I meant to type 'holes.'

    I say it's the thing I like least, but even that isn't necessarily a negative thing. Sometimes, I like it, because I can tell him something I am planning to do or implement and he will point out weaknesses. Acknowledging his notations and making adjustments often makes things more effective so I thank him for his help and incorporate his advice. He knows his expertise is valued and my project is the better for it and the next thing I know, he's surprising me with a new pressure point chart or a training whip or drink or lunch or a surprise visit and somehow I feel amazed that this incredible person simply wants to hang around me even when we're not training.
    A student said to his master: "You teach me fighting, but you talk about peace. How do you reconcile the two?" The master replied: "It is better to be a warrior in a garden than to be a gardener in a war." - unknown/Chinese

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=61024&page=14

  8. #58
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ene View Post
    he's surprising me with a new pressure point chart or a training whip
    He trains you with a whip?
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

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  9. #59
    Male johnnyyukon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    I hate the "spreading" (to use a term coined by @Beorn) that many of the more academically oriented NT's use in their argumentation.
    Spreading? Do tell.
    I've had this ice cream bar, since I was a child!

    Each thought's completely warped
    I'm like a walkin', talkin', ouija board.

  10. #60
    Senior Member Ene's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    He trains you with a whip?
    Haha, yes, a chain whip, but we've got a leather one, too, and I'm not afraid to use it
    A student said to his master: "You teach me fighting, but you talk about peace. How do you reconcile the two?" The master replied: "It is better to be a warrior in a garden than to be a gardener in a war." - unknown/Chinese

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=61024&page=14

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