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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    Your mom old enough she's likely got a lot more Te. I know a INFJ whose conflict resolution with family is: Apply Fe like crazy and then avoid them as much as possible. Nothing ever gets solved and family continues to step over boundaries and family also fumes and puzzles why INFJ is so distant. INFJ says cannot face these people with their actions because they don't have capcity to know right from wrong.

    I dealt with the same people by finally telling them exactly what had to change or I was breaking contact. They said "We do what we want, when we want, that's just us. We don't care about right and wrong.." So there, they did understand, just don't care. I broke contact guilt-free and breathe easier now! The INFJ still sweating each time phone rings...still gushing Fe like crazy when picks it up and still running away with relief when hangs up.

    I think my way was better, I actually asked and got an answer as to why they continued to be disrespectful of boundaries and they got to at least know why I don't warm to them, why they were cut direct. I gave them the chance to at least try to meet me halfway, they got to chose not to do so, but with INFJ they aren't even given a chance to know why the INFJ is distant.

    I know there are Fe types who don't avoid conflcts, I am just giving the case where one does use Fe to hide conflicts and to keep on appearing "nice" while really shunning the people they want to view them as "nice."

    I don't feel bad for offending people or hurting their feelings, what I feel bad over is if I unfairly hurt them or offended them without just cause.
    Haha well, it's usually when my dad (ESFJ) is fuming about something so I just ignore it until he calms down. If I try to calm the situation down, it just makes him more mad and annoyed. I learned that staying calm is the best route to go. I noticed that when my mom tries mediate the tension when my dad gets mad, it usually backfires on her. On another note, I am very conflict avoiding but if something really bothers me, I will end up being blunt about it.

    I will definitely admit that your example definiitely definitely clearly shows how Fe is at its worst. Sorry if I was a bit offbase.

  2. #62
    Senior Member wedekit's Avatar
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    Most of my teachers tell a joke or have some funny comment to throw out right before they pass out a test. I think it's just to lighten up the mood. However, I also believe there are times when it is not appropriate to tell a joke, such as during a doctor's appointment. I had a doctor tell me a joke while going over the basic procedures of the colonoscopy I was about to receive (I was having a checkup after having a piece of my stool hardened into concrete and lodged itself in my intestines; I had to get it surgically removed). I wanted to kick him in the face, honestly.

    I rarely tell jokes. My humor is defined more by sarcastic remarks than punchlines. I think if someone does tell a joke it should be short and sweet, and not some lengthy story with a mediocre punchline. In the event that I do tell a joke (normally only when me and a group of friends are swapping jokes) I usually tell ones like these:

    What does a fish say when it hits a wall? Dam.

    If someone doesn't like the joke, I shrug it off.
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  3. #63
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    Interesting thread. I don't think it's unreasonable for a teacher to want some feedback from students. I understand that as a student you want to just learn, but it is a social environment, so it's important to realize there are other people there with feelings and needs. It's not just about you.
    As for doctors and humor, I went to a doctor a few years ago when I was going through a hard time and had a minor complaint that I was very worried about. The doctor examined me in a professional manner, but when I started describing my obsessive worry about a minor ailment, he made a joke and told me I had too much time on my hands.
    I swear, that joke did more to cure me than anything else could have done. It made me laugh at myself, and it convinced me that I was worrying over nothing. I'm still grateful to that doctor.

  4. #64
    Senior Member TenebrousReflection's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wedekit View Post
    Hahaha, I never really thought about it but I guess I do this as well. People I don't really wish to create a bond with (usually for good reason; not because of snobbery) just get a "formality Fe" from me. People who push my buttons too much don't receive this luxury.
    I think you have touched on one of the negative perceptions I have toward Fe and insincericty with that notion. I'd rather have somoene be cold and distant towrad me than faking being friendly. The somewhat odd thing is, that a lot of the time I see the obvious insincerity of Fe being used by xxTx types and because its so clearly fake, it does not bother me, but when I think someone was being genuinely nice and friendly and later learn that its just a constant mask or instinct for them it bothers me. I think the btoehring me part of it has as much or more to do with me being upset with myself for being fooled by the fakeness than anything else tho.

    From Proteanmix's comments on Fe from the perspective of an Fe Dominant, I'm fairly sure a lot of my negative views of Fe are from seeing it misused by non-Fes and mistyping them. From those same comments, I also see times where maybe I use Fe more than I previously realized and do so subconciously (the making of a mental database of things about friends that I later call upon for anything from conversation to gift giving to acting as a mediatior in disputes - maybe its another case of different functions doing the same thing different ways with different motivations (because values are important to me, I extend that to wanting to know whats important to those that are important to me, but I get the impression that Fe does the same thing but approaches it from a different motivation)).

    But the part of Fe that baffles me the most, and I'm not sure if it is isolated to Fe or somethign else are those that put the good of the many above the freedom of the individual and put pressure on individuals to adhere to social norms if they think it will make the community better for it (in things that don't involve the individual causing harm to others). My perception in regards to traditionalism is that an ExTJ can still be reasoned with and if a good rational argument is presented they will give it thoughtful evaluation based on their values and goals, but an ExFJ would need to be approached with "social logic" (a structured argement based on if/then/else but tailored to the social aspects of it) to make a case they would consider which can sometimes be difficult or impossible if the ExFJ feels strongly about it. In fairness it's not that different than any other xxFx type, but again it is my perception that ExFJs are more likely to not only refuse to budge on their position, but to also want ot push that oppinion on to others because they see it as "the way things should be" or "the way things have always been". If this is a false perception of Fe, what am I describing (it could be generic unhealthy untypable behavior, but I see it often enough that it makes sense that it should be typable, or maybe a good 25% or more of society is just unhealthy) . I do know people I would type as FJs that that does not apply to (even some ESFJs), but my theory is that its more common among FJs than other types.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lisa73 View Post
    Interesting thread. I don't think it's unreasonable for a teacher to want some feedback from students. I understand that as a student you want to just learn, but it is a social environment, so it's important to realize there are other people there with feelings and needs. It's not just about you.
    So cracking jokes and making sure all students laugh at appropriate times is more important than the subject matter? The social aspect is more important than the material? Yes, I realize the world views it this and this is the thing I hated the most about public school.

    You totally missed my point by the way. I was merely saying that sometimes it's hard to focus on social aspects when trying to concentrate and not go into Ne too much and get scattered. I was merely saying that one shouldn't always assume that because a student isn't rolling in the aisles over the teacher's jokes that one isn't paying attention. I was fully admitting that the problem is mine. It is hard for me to focus on the ego needs of teachers while trying learn new material.

    And I am glad that your doctor cured you with a joke. Mine merely made a stressful and unpleasant appointment more difficult and still got paid $200 fat ones for the pleasure of trying his improv out on a captive audience.

    One time I found an INTJ doctor and I loved that so much. Just matter of fact kind and patient and that was that.

  6. #66
    Emerging Tallulah's Avatar
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    re: needing student feedback

    I find I get enough feedback from a handful of students, and that everyone has a different style of learning. I also know from doing theatre for years, that sometimes you think an audience hates your show, when really, they just have a different way of taking it in. Sometimes the quietest audience is getting the most out of the performance, and you won't know until later, and sometimes you'll never know at all.

    As far as the prof calling you out on your expression, heart, it seems to me that he's letting his insecurities slip out. It can be a vulnerable thing to be a teacher sometimes, but I always try not to let my insecurities get the better of me. Calling a student out when they're not disrupting class is just stupid, and always works against you.
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  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post
    As far as the prof calling you out on your expression, heart, it seems to me that he's letting his insecurities slip out. It can be a vulnerable thing to be a teacher sometimes, but I always try not to let my insecurities get the better of me. Calling a student out when they're not disrupting class is just stupid, and always works against you.
    It was eons ago now, but I freaked over, I kept wondering what I did that set him off, because I was a very quiet person back then. I'd probably handle it a lot better now. I can extrovert Ne out better now, but back then it was a nightmare...I was totally mortified to be the center of attention like that.

  8. #68
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    Folks, don't take me too seriously, I've just been perplexed by Fe type stuff through a lot of my life.

  9. #69
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TenebrousReflection View Post
    I think you have touched on one of the negative perceptions I have toward Fe and insincericty with that notion. I'd rather have somoene be cold and distant towrad me than faking being friendly. The somewhat odd thing is, that a lot of the time I see the obvious insincerity of Fe being used by xxTx types and because its so clearly fake, it does not bother me, but when I think someone was being genuinely nice and friendly and later learn that its just a constant mask or instinct for them it bothers me. I think the btoehring me part of it has as much or more to do with me being upset with myself for being fooled by the fakeness than anything else tho.
    I still have no clue how people differentiate between fakeness and politeness. There's a woman at my job who I don't particularly care for. If she knows she doesn't let on because whenever I see her she'll smile and say hello to me. I do the same to her. It's basic courtesy to me. I don't do any more associating than that with her. I do notice that my Fi-dominant boss won't even acknowledge people whom she doesn't like. No problem with me, but I also notice she has to work harder (turn up the "fake Fe") to get those in other departments to cooperate with projects. And it's also odder that awful lot of people feel this way towards her. I feel like I'm somewhat able to separate my personal feelings from people and get on with them at least on a professional level rather than letting my dislike of them seep into every interaction. Is this what you mean by fakeness? I call that being civil and professional. And being from DC it's all politics to me. Sometimes you have to work with people you don't like. Are you going to concentrate on disliking them or getting what you need done done? My logic is doing this creates a boundary for the relationship and we know where we're not going to go with each other. If we're not on good terms but we have to be together anyway to me this seems like the best way to navigate the situation.

    The only time I'm forced to come into contact with people I don't like is at work or when I was in school. Other than that, I try not to associate with people that I really don't like.

    I hate to sound so business-like about it, but in my experience it's better to not let on if you don't care for a person. I AM NOT saying ingratiate yourself towards them despite your feelings or deliberately mislead someone about your true feelings to them. Am I understanding what you're saying correctly though?

    Quote Originally Posted by TenebrousReflection View Post
    From Proteanmix's comments on Fe from the perspective of an Fe Dominant, I'm fairly sure a lot of my negative views of Fe are from seeing it misused by non-Fes and mistyping them. From those same comments, I also see times where maybe I use Fe more than I previously realized and do so subconciously (the making of a mental database of things about friends that I later call upon for anything from conversation to gift giving to acting as a mediatior in disputes - maybe its another case of different functions doing the same thing different ways with different motivations (because values are important to me, I extend that to wanting to know whats important to those that are important to me, but I get the impression that Fe does the same thing but approaches it from a different motivation)).
    Yes I totally agree. It's probably one of the most annoying things to me when I see these Fe vs. Fi threads start as if the two type of feelings are competing against each other for which one is the "real" feeling. I view it as different modes of wanting to attain the same ends.

    Quote Originally Posted by TenebrousReflection View Post
    But the part of Fe that baffles me the most, and I'm not sure if it is isolated to Fe or somethign else are those that put the good of the many above the freedom of the individual and put pressure on individuals to adhere to social norms if they think it will make the community better for it (in things that don't involve the individual causing harm to others). My perception in regards to traditionalism is that an ExTJ can still be reasoned with and if a good rational argument is presented they will give it thoughtful evaluation based on their values and goals, but an ExFJ would need to be approached with "social logic" (a structured argement based on if/then/else but tailored to the social aspects of it) to make a case they would consider which can sometimes be difficult or impossible if the ExFJ feels strongly about it. In fairness it's not that different than any other xxFx type, but again it is my perception that ExFJs are more likely to not only refuse to budge on their position, but to also want ot push that oppinion on to others because they see it as "the way things should be" or "the way things have always been". If this is a false perception of Fe, what am I describing (it could be generic unhealthy untypable behavior, but I see it often enough that it makes sense that it should be typable, or maybe a good 25% or more of society is just unhealthy) . I do know people I would type as FJs that that does not apply to (even some ESFJs), but my theory is that its more common among FJs than other types.
    Hmm, I wonder if this is an EJ vs IP difference or maybe FP vs. FJ.

    Can you give me some examples of what you mean by "the good of the many above the freedom of the individual"? That's a pretty big idea to boil down to an EFJ thing. That's an ideological difference. You'd be hardpressed to get someone to change their minds about such a basic inclination.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
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  10. #70
    Senior Member TenebrousReflection's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    I still have no clue how people differentiate between fakeness and politeness. There's a woman at my job who I don't particularly care for. If she knows she doesn't let on because whenever I see her she'll smile and say hello to me. I do the same to her. It's basic courtesy to me. I don't do any more associating than that with her. I do notice that my Fi-dominant boss won't even acknowledge people whom she doesn't like. No problem with me, but I also notice she has to work harder (turn up the "fake Fe") to get those in other departments to cooperate with projects. And it's also odder that awful lot of people feel this way towards her. I feel like I'm somewhat able to separate my personal feelings from people and get on with them at least on a professional level rather than letting my dislike of them seep into every interaction. Is this what you mean by fakeness? I call that being civil and professional. And being from DC it's all politics to me. Sometimes you have to work with people you don't like. Are you going to concentrate on disliking them or getting what you need done done? My logic is doing this creates a boundary for the relationship and we know where we're not going to go with each other. If we're not on good terms but we have to be together anyway to me this seems like the best way to navigate the situation.

    The only time I'm forced to come into contact with people I don't like is at work or when I was in school. Other than that, I try not to associate with people that I really don't like.

    I hate to sound so business-like about it, but in my experience it's better to not let on if you don't care for a person. I AM NOT saying ingratiate yourself towards them despite your feelings or deliberately mislead someone about your true feelings to them. Am I understanding what you're saying correctly though?
    I think it comes down to more neutral vs nice/outgoing/friendly. Its easy to be sincerely neutral and still be polite, considerate and when needed being diplomatic about things, but doing so in a "just business" sort of way, but some people go out of their way to smile and be cheerful all the time, and for some of the people they are dealing with, thats a sincere expression of how they feel about them, but for others its an unconscious act thats misleading. In an interaction I observed a few months ago, one such nearly-always cheerful person (who I suspect is an ENFJ) asks another person (who I don't know much about but seems like an IxFP of some kind) the simple "haven't seen you around for a while, how have you been?" and the other person goes on to explain their current medical problems etc, and the person that asked the question listens and lets them keep talking for a while, but eventually excuses himself from the conversation. In the end the person that was asked mumbles to themselves in an annoyed tone (after the first person had left), "if he didn't want to know, why did he ask". Its that sort of faked interest/concern that bothers me as well. After I spend several months around someone I can usually tell the level of concern/sincerity/seriousness in their idle conversation like that, but with some people (and people I don't know very well), it seems impossible to differentiate because its an always on thing for them. If I'm nice to someone, its because I find them likable and if I express concern or interest in them its genuine (but even a lot of my friends would probably call me detached and distant a lot of the time ), but if I either have no opinion about someone or even if I dislike them I try to be neutral but civil and polite toward them, but don't try to show interest/concern etc if its not within me.

    Hmm, I wonder if this is an EJ vs IP difference or maybe FP vs. FJ.

    Can you give me some examples of what you mean by "the good of the many above the freedom of the individual"? That's a pretty big idea to boil down to an EFJ thing. That's an ideological difference. You'd be hardpressed to get someone to change their minds about such a basic inclination.

    That may have been a poorly worded sentiment on my part, but pretty much anything that falls in the category of "don't rock the boat" (preserve peace for the collective at the expense of individuality) sort of thinking is what I associate with Fe, but that may be a misconception on my part.

    As I tried to think of specfic examples, I can see they don't specifically relate to Fe, but I have the feeling that Fe is a motivating factor in them, but the more I think about it, the more likely it seems that its a tertiary, inferior or sahdow Fe thats causing the influence, but I'd be curious what side of these positions someone with dominant or secondary Fe would take as it might help me see if I'm mistaken on the conenction or not.

    One example I had in mind with that thought is the education system and how they keep talking about the importance for kids learnign more math and science for the good of our nations economic future. In my mind, with that attidute, they are wanting to force kids who have no aptitude for those subjects to take more of them without bothing to think that maybe the kid could excel at something else if they could use their time for that instead of being pressured down that road (I beleive fairly strognly that the education system needs to be re-examined and there is a lot of room for improvement, but I'm not happy with the narrow minded approach that seems to be given to the task based on what others percieve as the common good - my gripe is with the one size fits all approach).

    Families puttign pressure on their kids to go into some occupation the parrents approve of would be a variation of that (wanting success and prestige for their child (and by extension the family) without bothing to ask if its whats right for the kid). Another variant would be pressure among parents that are religious to get their kids to participate in their religion instead of waiting and seeing if the child expreses interest in that relgion on their own or something else (and creating a fear in the child that they will be judged negativly if they choose a different path).

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