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  1. #91
    heart on fire
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    Quote Originally Posted by noigmn View Post
    . but I'll say from my point of view, there is little chance a work colleague will stop liking you because you didn't choke down their food, or say it was nice. It is not really something that decides a relationship. ..
    Have you worked in an office?

    It might not be a deciding factor for you about who you would like or not like at work, but my goodness I've worked with some petty and/or messed up people in the past and I have even seen people dislike someone over the type of shoes they wear!

    Anyone rude enought to push "did you like it, did you really like it!" may very well not have the personally development to rise above pettiness.

    Work social situations are so scary and bizare to me, lol.

  2. #92

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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    Have you worked in an office?

    It might not be a deciding factor for you about who you would like or not like at work, but my goodness I've worked with some petty and/or messed up people in the past and I have even seen people dislike someone over the type of shoes they wear!

    Anyone rude enought to push "did you like it, did you really like it!" may very well not have the personally development to rise above pettiness.

    Work social situations are so scary and bizare to me, lol.
    Nah, I haven't worked in an office. I have the bad ENFP habit of getting stuck at uni and studying new things.

    It might also be a cultural difference. People are really laid back in Australia. If they are around then maybe I avoid those people or something...

    I love your signature quote too .
    Freude, schöner Götterfunken Tochter aus Elysium, Wir betreten feuertrunken, Himmlische, dein Heiligtum! Deine Zauber binden wieder Was die Mode streng geteilt; Alle Menschen werden Brüder, Wo dein sanfter Flügel weilt.

  3. #93
    soft and silky sarah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    Noigmn dearest I realize this.
    When threads like this happen I sometimes feel like people are saying Fi will always be honest and truthful and those with Fe will be slippery and untruthful, when I just don't see it that way. I hope I'm not inflating my dealings with people but I think I get along with 95% of people I come into contact with on a daily basis and when low stakes social stuff like this happens, I credit this type of action to keeping it that way. I guess you could also say the accumulation of this small stuff makes some Fe-doms look like Pink's smarmy used car salesman. When I encounter other FJs I suppose we know the "rules" that sometimes asking how someone is doing really doesn't mean that you really want to know. I don't find that kind of thing fake. I just say great and keep moving. I know the people who I can really go deep with and everyone else is white noise. I make it very clear to those people who I really want to know the depth and extent of what's going on in their lives that it's not some passing nicety tossed out over my shoulder. It depends on the nature of the relationship and my appropriateness meter kicks in.

    Hm.... I think it's vanity that makes some Fi-preferring people think that they're only capable of being fundamentally honest and people who have their "opposite" preferences must therefore not be. Honesty isn't related to type preferences.

    From what I understand, Fi is related to self-awareness and self-reflection, and Fi-preferring people tend to be very good at knowing what they value and why, and also what they believe to be true regardless of what all their friends value and believe is true. And they're very likely to stick up for their beliefs and values regardless of what others say because it's kind of unthinkable for us to be living a lie all the time. But that doesn't translate into Fi-preferring people being honest all the time, although I think we tend to be really bothered by our actions --and even wallow in self-loathing-- if we know we aren't living in accordance with our values. Still, whether Fi-preferring always speak the truth no matter what depends on what they choose to value and how they see value in expressing it.

    Since honesty is a value that is highly esteemed by most people all over the world, naturally it stands to reason that Fe-preferring people value it too, and believe that society as a whole would crumble if people didn't agree to uphold it together as a shared value. It seems to me that whether or not Fe-preferring people are always honest has everything to do with specific social interactions. For example, it may be fine to lie about your opinion of somebody's potluck dish, but wrong to lie about stuff that would atually hurt someone. (I might be wrong about this, but it seems to me that Judith Martin's advice in her Miss Manners books might be a good example of how one can avoid lying outright and yet be evasive about one's real opinions in order to keep whatever is said within the boundaries of appropriateness and socially-acceptable rules of behavior.)

    FWIW, my Fe-dominant husband (ENFJ) is one of the most honest people I know. He can't stand the thought of living inauthentically, and he's very good at wording his disapproval in terms that don't hurt others' feelings. I admire that about him.

    Sarah

  4. #94
    Senior Member Kestrel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sarah View Post
    Hm.... I think it's vanity that makes some Fi-preferring people think that they're only capable of being fundamentally honest and people who have their "opposite" preferences must therefore not be. Honesty isn't related to type preferences.
    Great post. I absolutely agree. Some of the most honest people I know are FE users. But, I'm not an expert on these functions (and judging from some of the earlier posts in this thread, neither are many others).

    I can occasionally process my emotions before they manifest themselves in other people's realities. This is not always the case... sometimes I can't get away or get the space needed to do this. Or if I'm really enraged, I'll just totally skip this phase (doesn't happen often).

    Fi seems honest in the regard that it's raw and unprocessed. But the downside seems to be that it has the potential to be reactionary and unyielding. Someone correct me if I'm off-base.

  5. #95

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kestrel View Post
    Fi seems honest in the regard that it's raw and unprocessed. But the downside seems to be that it has the potential to be reactionary and unyielding. Someone correct me if I'm off-base.
    In the Fe domain: yes, we are unyielding. But that is because we don't value a lot of the things you do. We have no reason to work toward them or chase them, and we don't find fulfillment in achieving them unless they also achieve an Fi value. You just need to judge productivity outside your view of the world.

    Just out of interest also, do you guys notice it is a little insulting calling Fi raw and unprocessed, or reactionary and unyielding? It's just we always seem to get pulled up by Fe on this stuff, but don't really make a show back about it.
    Freude, schöner Götterfunken Tochter aus Elysium, Wir betreten feuertrunken, Himmlische, dein Heiligtum! Deine Zauber binden wieder Was die Mode streng geteilt; Alle Menschen werden Brüder, Wo dein sanfter Flügel weilt.

  6. #96
    Senior Member Kestrel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noigmn View Post
    Just out of interest also, do you guys notice it is a little insulting calling Fi raw and unprocessed, or reactionary and unyielding? It's just we always seem to get pulled up by Fe on this stuff, but don't really make a show back about it.
    I didn't mean to be insulting, but how many "Fi people" have slammed Fe in this and other threads? I'm pointing out a "downside". Doesn't every function have a downside? I asked you to correct me if I was wrong in my observation.

    Both functions seek the same thing, why does one have to be better?

  7. #97
    soft and silky sarah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noigmn View Post
    Just out of interest also, do you guys notice it is a little insulting calling Fi raw and unprocessed, or reactionary and unyielding? It's just we always seem to get pulled up by Fe on this stuff, but don't really make a show back about it.
    Well, I can't say I specifically experience my use of Fi as raw and/or unprocessed, since I spend a great deal of time processing my feelings by thinking about them, trying to understand them, and trying to live in accordance with them. But maybe it looks that way to others who don't have my preferences. Maybe what Kestrel is saying is that the feelings of Fi-preferring people seem to often not be related to anything outside of those people's OWN interpretation of events (correct me if I'm wrong...) I think Fe-preferring people are more likely to be in tune with how everyone else in the room is feeling whereas Fi preferring people are more likely to be in tune with how they feel regardless of others.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kestrel View Post
    I didn't mean to be insulting, but how many "Fi people" have slammed Fe in this and other threads? I'm pointing out a "downside". Doesn't every function have a downside? I asked you to correct me if I was wrong in my observation.

    Both functions seek the same thing, why does one have to be better?
    Agreed. Every function has a downside, and I think Fi can come across as looking self-absorbed to others who don't understand the Fi-preferring persons' values, or who don't share them. This is not to say that the Fi-person atually IS self absorbed or inflexible -- just that they may look that way if they're fighting against the group values for reasons they can't explain rationally or don't think they should have to explain.

    I think it's more helpful to champion all the cognitive processes, even the ones in our shadows, so as to better appreciate why the people who are good at those processes use them and trust them. Ultimately, I agree with the type theorists that say all 8 cognitive processes work best when they work in tandem with other processes. There's really no way you can only use one favorite process and get quite the same results as you would if you combined it with other ways of judging and perceiving.

    I speak for msyelf here -- and I realize that Fi-preferring NFs are probably much more empathic than I am. I used to be the queen of doing my own thing and being oblivious to how my actions are affecting others. I've found that trying to devleop Fe in myself (awareness of how others are feeling and appreciation for their values, and trying to find out why shared values are shared by people in the first place rather than simply rebelling against them because they're the "norm") has worked wonders in my social life. I think people trust me more -- they think I'm actually interested in them and on their side, rather than always doing my own thing and never joining the group.


    Sarah

  8. #98

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kestrel View Post
    I didn't mean to be insulting, but how many "Fi people" have slammed Fe in this and other threads? I'm pointing out a "downside". Doesn't every function have a downside? I asked you to correct me if I was wrong in my observation.

    Both functions seek the same thing, why does one have to be better?

    Edit: I don't appreciate having my post used like this. First you call my post insulting then ask others to agree with you. Then you turn it into an "us vs them" deal. Don't twist my intentions. And please don't use me as an example.
    With respect to the Edit: yawn...

    But to clarify: unyielding was probably the main insult. How is Fi unyielding? I'm guessing the word has its normal meaning of not producing anything.

    Also it doesn't change the fact a destructive idea is put out there when you put maybe you decide at the end of a paragraph. I will give an example if that isn't clear. Also two wrongs don't make a right, so the comparative argument is just a naive way of saying everyone else is being destructive, so I can too. You pointed out a downside that doesn't exist with no justification of why. So if you can justify how Fi is unyielding without taking a narrow inside the box viewpoint, I'll let it slide.
    Freude, schöner Götterfunken Tochter aus Elysium, Wir betreten feuertrunken, Himmlische, dein Heiligtum! Deine Zauber binden wieder Was die Mode streng geteilt; Alle Menschen werden Brüder, Wo dein sanfter Flügel weilt.

  9. #99
    heart on fire
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    I think it's a given that other types tend to see Fi as unyeilding. It's actually something I don't have a problem hearing. Some things shouldn't be yielded on. The only thing I wouldn't want to actually be would be mindlessly unyielding.

  10. #100
    Senior Member Kestrel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noigmn View Post
    With respect to the Edit: yawn...

    But to clarify: unyielding was probably the main insult. How is Fi unyielding? I'm guessing the word has its normal meaning of not producing anything.

    Also it doesn't change the fact a destructive idea is put out there when you put maybe you decide at the end of a paragraph. I will give an example if that isn't clear. Also two wrongs don't make a right, so the comparative argument is just a naive way of saying everyone else is being destructive, so I can too. You pointed out a downside that doesn't exist with no justification of why. So if you can justify how Fi is unyielding without taking a narrow inside the box viewpoint, I'll let it slide.
    I had some big reactive post but then I realized you were thinking of the wrong definition of unyielding.

    I meant unyielding in the respect of not backing down when your values are on the line. That's certainly not a bad thing.

    I did not mean unyielding as in the definition of "not having any yield."

    So it was miscommunication. No harm no foul.

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