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[Fi] Fi: You only get it if you got it

SolitaryWalker

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:azdaja:

You weren't supposed to answer my question that way, damn you!!!

And you also quoted my post before I corrected my grammatical error, damn you straight to hell!!!

:azdaja:

Haha, did not mean to correct the grammatical error.

I thought your post said 'dominant Fe', not dormant (as I see now).

I think the correction still has merit however, as inferior is more specific than dormant as in the typological context it has a very precise definition. If we were to say 'dormant' the question to follow would be to what degree, so the term dormant would be too general. I corrected it however not to make it more precise, that would be putting words into your mouth, but because I thought you meant to say 'inferior' instead of 'dominant'.
 

CrystalViolet

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Really? It doesn't seem like it.
 

Simplexity

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I don't know why but for some reason I believe him...

*I'm actually not being sarcastic.
 
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I grant that Fi is a judging function. The question to follow is, to what degree is it a judging function?

Jung defines Judging as simply conscious, and perceiving as unconscious.

We clearly see that Thinking is a judging function in the most conventional sense of the term, as it can provide a logical justification for a decision.

Yet, Feeling in itself merely points towards a decision. It is simply a sentiment of approval or disapproval. Thus, it is clearly not as neatly organized as Thinking.

I disagree with the bolded part. In my example of emoting over the movie, I compared existing emotions to an internal, "idealized" emotional standard and adjusted accordingly. I didn't just "approve or disapprove" either the movie or my own emotions. Both were subject to comparison and judgment.

I would attribute this to your ability to use Thinking.

[...]

Quite obviously you used Thinking to organize them.

Tell me please if you could think of any other way organize anything without relying on logic.

For instance, if I were to say Bob is bad. In my mind I have an idea of what Bob is, and what bad is, however fuzzy they may be. And I connect the two. This procedure could be depicted in the language of symbolic logic.

All of us do this, thus this shows that all of us use logic or use Thinking.

It is not possible to organize anything without defining terms and connecting them, this is Thinking or logic.

[...]

The fact that you had a model to begin with shows that you used Thinking.

I already stated that I used a form of "logic" (as derived from real-world consensus modified by my own experiences) as the mortar or organizing principle. And I use that to organize emotional "bricks" (personal emotional experiences or conclusions about emotions) to create a model. The model is then used for comparisons and a guide to behavior.

If you want to call that Thinking, that's fine with me.

I suspect Ti is pretty much the same. INTP children would initially derive an organizing principle from real-world experiences (what works vs. what doesn't work) and collect "bricks" in the form of mathematical or legal principles that bolster their cause. In time they build a system for quickly comparing whether a given real-world experience or situation is logical or not.
 

CrystalViolet

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I say this because most of the INFP's I've met, have mostly been extremely intellectual, mostly in the sciences. One was a theoretical chemist, which according to your theories would be entirely beyond him, as he would lack the ability to form enough logic to do his work.
 

SolitaryWalker

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I disagree with the bolded part. In my example of emoting over the movie, I compared existing emotions to an internal, "idealized" emotional standard and adjusted accordingly. I didn't just "approve or disapprove" either the movie or my own emotions. Both were subject to comparison and judgment.



I already stated that I used a form of "logic" (as derived from real-world consensus modified by my own experiences) as the mortar or organizing principle. And I use that to organize emotional "bricks" (personal emotional experiences or conclusions about emotions) to create a model. The model is then used for comparisons and a guide to behavior.

If you want to call that Thinking, that's fine with me..

Yes, I think we would be in agreement that this cognitive process was Thinking.

I suspect Ti is pretty much the same. INTP children would initially derive an organizing principle from real-world experiences (what works vs. what doesn't work) and collect "bricks" in the form of mathematical or legal principles that bolster their cause. In time they build a system for quickly comparing whether a given real-world experience or situation is logical or not.

The emotions of the INTP are focused on impersonal topics, yet emotions of the INFP are focused more on those that engage their passions directly.

That is the first notable difference.

The second difference is the emotions of the INTP are engaged less than the emotions of the INFP and for this reason the INTP has an easier time with logical analysis. In almost all cases however, the emotions of the INFP are not engaged to the point where all logical analysis would be rendered impossible, and in the cases of INFPs with a well developed Thinking, rigorous analysis is often performed on issues that engage the emotions of the INFP.
 

CrystalViolet

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The other was a genetics researcher.
 

SolitaryWalker

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I say this because most of the INFP's I've met, have mostly been extremely intellectual, mostly in the sciences. One was a theoretical chemist, which according to your theories would be entirely beyond him, as he would lack the ability to form enough logic to do his work.

No, not really some of us are exceptional people and manage to excell at things we are not naturally talented in.

Gregory Mendel was another example of an INFP scientist.

Those are quite rare though, INFPs are under-represented as mathematicians, philosophers and scientists, if you run into those often it is most likely the case that you have mistyped those people.
 

CrystalViolet

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No, I didn't. Both examples, originally had their tests done professionally. I know this because I went and did it with the same practioner at thier recommendations.
 
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Consider for example how Tolstoy would preoccupy himself with the problem of evil and many other problems of human nature. He would derive great aesthetical joy and much grief from such contemplation, as his novels clearly reflected.

This is much less common among SFs on the following grounds as well,

I would argue that the emotional life of NFs is richer than that of SFs because NFs are able to apply their passions to more entities than SFs simply because their imagination allows them more access to entities that could serve as breeding ground and for their emotions (as well as direct sources) than SFs have.

Tolstoy's novels are actually very cool, analytical, and intellectual. They're morality plays, carefully planned and executed. "War and Peace" is a giant illustration of Tolstoy's intellectual philosophy of determinism of world events; "Anna Karenina" is a simple morality play: Sexual promiscuity ends in disaster. Not much joy there.

Tolstoy was a moralist, not an emoter. He was against strong emotions. He thought strong emotions led to crime and dissolution and felt that art should elevate the intellect and morality at the expense of emotion; hence "Anna Karenina." His novels are usually translated with more heat than the original Russian because they capture an imperial period. But in fact the original Russian is actually rather dull and carefully controlled. Tolstoy hated high society and considered it immoral and dissolute, so he deliberately tried to portray it as colorless and dull.

As for emotion driven by imagination: There are different types of emotion: "chicken soup for the soul" emotion, emotion driven by actual events, and emotion driven by imagination, among others. The last one is rather high-flown and noble, but it's also pretty shallow. You can put it down and walk away from it at the drop of a hat. I know that emotion all too well. :D
 

CrystalViolet

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Oh, BTW I'm a scientist too.
 

SolitaryWalker

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No, I didn't. Both examples, originally had their tests done professionally. I know this because I went and did it with the same practioner at thier recommendations.

Okay.

List all the people you have in mind and their professions.

Oh, BTW I'm a scientist too.


What kind of a scientist?
 
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The emotions of the INTP are focused on impersonal topics, yet emotions of the INFP are focused more on those that engage their passions directly.

That is the first notable difference.

The second difference is the emotions of the INTP are engaged less than the emotions of the INFP and for this reason the INTP has an easier time with logical analysis. In almost all cases however, the emotions of the INFP are not engaged to the point where all logical analysis would be rendered impossible, and in the cases of INFPs with a well developed Thinking, rigorous analysis is often performed on issues that engage the emotions of the INFP.

I think you missed my point. I wasn't talking about the emotions of an INTP.

Specifically I was comparing an internal Fi (emotional) model or structure to an internal Ti (logical) model or structure. They would be the same (at least initially, in childhood), except that the "bricks" for the Fi model would be emotions while the "bricks" for the Ti model would be math and science.

Naturally, one can speak of what the Fi child would do with math and science vs. what the Ti child would do with emotions. But that wasn't my previous point.
 

SolitaryWalker

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I think you missed my point. I wasn't talking about the emotions of an INTP.

Specifically I was comparing an internal Fi (emotional) model or structure to an internal Ti (logical) model or structure. They would be the same (at least initially, in childhood), except that the "bricks" for the Fi model would be emotions while the "bricks" for the Ti model would be math and science.

Naturally, one can speak of what the Fi child would do with math and science vs. what the Ti child would do with emotions. But that wasn't my previous point.

Would you imagine that a Ti child would have greater natural aptitude towards logic, whilst an Fi child would excell more at relating to people?

Would you also imagine that a Ti child would struggle at relating to people, yet an Fi child would struggle at logical analysis?

Hmm, my earlier point was that they both have structure in their Thinking, but there is more structure in the Ti mind than in the Fi. It could be the case however that we are not having the same discussion at this point.
 
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Would you imagine that a Ti child would have greater natural aptitude towards logic, whilst an Fi child would excell more at relating to people?

Would you also imagine that a Ti child would struggle at relating to people, yet an Fi child would struggle at logical analysis?

Yes.

Hmm, my earlier point was that they both have structure in their Thinking, but there is more structure in the Ti mind than in the Fi. It could be the case however that we are not having the same discussion at this point.

And I say I have structure in my Fi model, but it's used to organize emotion. :D
 

SolitaryWalker

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Tolstoy was an INFJ, by my reckoning. But let's not get into that here. :D

I would argue ENFP because unlike Dostoevsky (INFJ), Tolstoy seemed to have many themes in his novels and many characters. For example the War and Peace seemed to aspire to deliver many messages through many mouthpieces. Hence, this is Ne, or imagination sparked up by many external stimuli.

Yet Dostoevsky on the other hand was an Ni dom. His imagination was sparked up only by a few certain sources. Hence, his vision seemed to have had more focus and there appeared to be one clear or a small set of clear messages he aspired to deliver.

Also, Dostoevsky was clearly preaching to the reader, he makes explicit value judgments that he expects everyone to abide by (those concerning his radical political and religious views)--Fe.

Yet Tolstoy is passionate about his maxims, yet he does not aspire to persuade the reader nearly as much.
 

SolitaryWalker

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Yes.



And I say I have structure in my Fi model, but it's used to organize emotion. :D

I think we are in agreement here, and the structure in your model is the result of Thinking, as aforementioned. Thinking in this case is subordinated to the interests of Introverted Feeling, that is why your Thinking is concerned with emotion.

On the other hand, the Feeling of the INTP is subordinated to the interests of Introverted Thinking, that is why many INTPs are passionate about mathematics, philosophy and physics.
 
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