[Fi] Fi: You only get it if you got it

[Simplexity]

???????????????/

All I can say...Where is the foundation to any of this?

I think her reasoning was that dominant Ti users don't necessary need to build their Feeling functions to the extent that Feelers have to with their thinking Functions.

The case on intelligence and Ti dominant users ease in utilizing it would need another thread and for the purposes of not starting a flame war is better left untouched for now.

 

[RDF]

However, a dom F who is Intuitive will experience emotion to a greater degree than a dom F who is a Sensor. This is the case because his attunement with the intellect allows reflection on emotions possible, therefore it is possible for him to experience emotion more. (Consider the following examples. If I am under anesthesia and I am pinched, I do not have an intellectual awareness of my pain, in other words, my brain never gets the ouch signal. In order for me to feel pain, the pain must be registered in my mind. This is what led many to conclude that animals and retards cannot feel pain. The ability of animals to feel pain evinces that they are attuned with the intellect to a degree.)

I think I disagree. And I think the analogy is terrible. Anyway:

My ISFP sister split from her first husband shortly before I split from my first wife, and we were living pretty close by and saw each other frequently.

I would say that my Sensor dom F sister wallowed in her negative emotions more before her split, whereas I wallowed in my negative emotions more after mine.

My sister is more "in the moment," so she suffered more as the pain occured and then got over it more quickly after the split. I'm more reflective, so I tended to distance myself from the pain over the short-term and then reflect on it more in the aftermath .

So I wouldn't say that an ISFP experiences less emotion. My sister was plenty broken up about the whole thing at the time. I would just say that we focus on it at different chronological stages.

(Then there is the whole issue about healthy processing of strong emotion. One could argue that a Sensor might have difficulty processing such a big loss and get stuck in a melancholy phase for longer, thus apparently being more emotive in that sense.)

 

[SillySapienne]

Lieutenant Wing, do you not see what you are doing here?

It is as if you absolutely refuse to accept any new information that does not fit into your old, stagnant model.

Don't you know that the best model is a *working* model, one that gets modified every time new relevant information materializes?

You are not really addressing anything I, or anyone else is stating, rather you are asserting and reasserting your *same* stance/system/model over and over again.

How can I engage you in discourse if every time I bring up a point, or a refutation you safely dodge it rather than letting it saturate and actually addressing it???

*frustrated*

 

[SolitaryWalker]

Lieutenant Wing, do you not see what you are doing here?

It is as if you absolutely refuse to accept any new information that does not fit into your old, stagnant model.

Don't you know that the best model is a *working* model, one that gets modified every time new relevant information materializes?

You are not really addressing anything I am stating, rather you are asserting and reasserting your *same* stance/system/model over and over again.

How can I engage you in discourse if every time I bring up a point, or a refutation you safely dodge it rather than letting it saturate and actually addressing it???

*frustrated*

Madame, I assure you, I am currently wrestling with myself more than with you here. Of course, I am considering new ideas, unfortunately many are implausible.

On a more felicitious note, I have edited my previous post where I have embraced one of your ideas, read up.

 

[SillySapienne]

I think her reasoning was that dominant Ti users don't necessary need to build their Feeling functions to the extent that Feelers have to with their thinking Functions.

Yes.

 

[SolitaryWalker]

I think I disagree. And I think the analogy is terrible. Anyway:

My ISFP sister split from her first husband shortly before I split from my first wife, and we were living pretty close by and saw each other frequently.

I would say that my Sensor dom F sister wallowed in her negative emotions more before her split, whereas I wallowed in my negative emotions more after mine.

My sister is more "in the moment," so she suffered more as the pain occured and then got over it more quickly after the split. I'm more reflective, so I tended to distance myself from the pain over the short-term and then reflect on it more in the aftermath .

So I wouldn't say that an ISFP experiences less emotion. My sister was plenty broken up about the whole thing at the time. I would just say that we focus on it at different chronological stages.

(Then there is the whole issue about healthy processing of strong emotion. One could argue that a Sensor might have difficulty processing such a big loss and get stuck in a melancholy phase for longer, thus apparently being more emotive in that sense.)

This is not relevant. A loss of a loved one does not take much intelligence to process, it is obvious to everyone.

So, you were on equal footing in that case.

 

[SillySapienne]

Chancellor Wing:

People do their best work in a *heightened* state of arousal, not an exceedingly high one, and most certainly not at a ROCK CONCERT!!!

You committed a logical fallacy there, and lucky you I forgot what it's called.

*goes to find out*

EDIT: Holy hell there are a shit ton of fallacies.

Whatever, you get the point.

 

[SolitaryWalker]

You committed a logical fallacy there, and lucky you I forgot what it's called.*

What does heightened mean?

Moreover, my Rock concern example shows that there is indeed an antithesis between Thinking and Feeling, simply because a certain degree of intensification of Feeling or a certain degree of emotional arousal will be counter productive to Thinking.

*goes to find out*

Let me know when you do! Though, I do not see the fallacy. What I said follows from your proposition that there is no antithesis between thinking and feeling. The state of arousal we get at a Rock Concert leads to an intensification of Feeling. If there truly was no antithesis between Thinking and Feeling the Rock Concert should not hinder our Thinking.

If you are Thinking the fallacy consists in misinterpreting what you meant by heightened, I really cannot be blamed because you did not specify how high the arousal must be. Heightened means high by definition, a very general term, which allows room for 'an exceedingly high' interpretation.

Secondly, your claim that there is no antithesis between Thinking and Feeling also evinces that there was room for the 'exceedingly high' interpretation, as I have shown above.

I think what you have in mind is the straw man fallacy, or purposefully misrepresenting the other one's position in order to make it appear weaker. This fallacy was impossible for me to comitt because you did not have a clear-cut position to begin with because it was very general.

 

[RDF]

Do you think that this could be attributed to your age? The fact that you had time to develop your Thinking and for this reason your Thinking is organized.

The model is under constant construction and reorganization, and a lot of strange things get layered into it. I already mentioned in an earlier post that cynicism and selfishness are part of the makeup; I wouldn't doubt that a lot of Thinking appears in there as well.

Still, that model was already there as a kid. I had it beat into me pretty early (in good part by my ISTP father) that emotions were tricky. I couldn't stop feeling them, so at a minimum I needed to be able to handle and organize them some way.

Thinking is an organized function because it is in tune with logical reasoning.

Now, why is Feeling an organized function?

Clarify the question a bit, please. For example, do you agree that Fi is a Judging function, but you disagree that it's organized? What's a Judging function if it's not organized? Or do you think that Fi is not a Judging function at all?

In any case, I don't think my internal model is arbitrary. The outside world presents plenty of examples of heirarchies and rules for emotions and emotional situations. So I think of my model as a brick structure: Logic is the mortar (that is, "logic" as dictated by real-world consensus as to how emotions should be viewed and handled), and the bricks are subjective/personal emotions and emotional situations from the past.

Anyway, something like that. Are you able to distinguish between the mortar and the bricks in your internal Ti model?

 

[RDF]

This is not relevant. A loss of a loved one does not take much intelligence to process, it is obvious to everyone.

So, you were on equal footing in that case.

Well, on the smaller stuff my little sister is way more emotive than me. She's kind of child-like, quick to emote and mourn every little thing. I'm more reflective, quicker to distance, quicker to write off the small stuff as beneath my dignity, quicker to rise above things and take a philosophical view.

[Edit: I know INFPs can be dramatic; but that tends to run shallow. ISFPs can be cyclothymic; that can also be shallow but it's quickly and easily triggered.]

 

[SolitaryWalker]

The model is under constant construction and reorganization, and a lot of strange things get layered into it. I already mentioned in an earlier post that cynicism and selfishness are part of the makeup; I wouldn't doubt that a lot of Thinking appears in there as well.

Still, that model was already there as a kid. I had it beat into me pretty early (in good part by my ISTP father) that emotions were tricky. I couldn't stop feeling them, so at a minimum I needed to be able to handle and organize them some way.




In any case, I don't think my internal model is arbitrary. The outside world presents plenty of examples of heirarchies and rules for emotions and emotional situations. So I think of my model as a brick structure: Logic is the mortar (that is, "logic" as dictated by real-world consensus as to how emotions should be viewed and handled), and the bricks are subjective/personal emotions and emotional situations from the past.

Anyway, something like that. Are you able to distinguish between the mortar and the bricks in your internal Ti model?

I grant that Fi is a judging function. The question to follow is, to what degree is it a judging function?

Jung defines Judging as simply conscious, and perceiving as unconscious.

We clearly see that Thinking is a judging function in the most conventional sense of the term, as it can provide a logical justification for a decision.

Yet, Feeling in itself merely points towards a decision. It is simply a sentiment of approval or disapproval. Thus, it is clearly not as neatly organized as Thinking.

In any case, I don't think my internal model is arbitrary. ?

I would attribute this to your ability to use Thinking.

In Still, that model was already there as a kid. I had it beat into me pretty early (in good part by my ISTP father) that emotions were tricky. I couldn't stop feeling them, so at a minimum I needed to be able to handle and organize them some way.
?

Quite obviously you used Thinking to organize them.

Tell me please if you could think of any other way organize anything without relying on logic.

For instance, if I were to say Bob is bad. In my mind I have an idea of what Bob is, and what bad is, however fuzzy they may be. And I connect the two. This procedure could be depicted in the language of symbolic logic.

All of us do this, thus this shows that all of us use logic or use Thinking.

It is not possible to organize anything without defining terms and connecting them, this is Thinking or logic.

The model is under constant construction and reorganization, and a lot of strange things get layered into it. I already mentioned in an earlier post that cynicism and selfishness are part of the makeup; I wouldn't doubt that a lot of Thinking appears in there as well.?

The fact that you had a model to begin with shows that you used Thinking.

 

[CrystalViolet]

.......

 

[CrystalViolet]

Blue Wing,
You make it sound as though INFP's in particular, are at the mercy of their emotions, just lying in there in a puddle of drool, as wave after wave of feeling washes over them.

Do you even know a INFP in real life? Because if you did, you wouldn't make half the claims that you do. I have not met one INFP, who is incapable of conducting a logical argument. Or who is unable to exhibit cool detachment when required, in fact, in some respects, they are able to do so more then some of the other NF types (sorry guys.) I have some excellent examples IRL, but you have to meet them.The sad fact is, Blue Wing none of your prosthelysing is applicable, because for all your theorising and logic, the very thing you claim to be Ti's advantage is indeed your disadvantage, and that would be detachment. You are so lost in the logic in your head, so detached that you have lost touch with reality.

 

[SolitaryWalker]

Well, on the smaller stuff my little sister is way more emotive than me. She's kind of child-like, quick to emote and mourn every little thing. I'm more reflective, quicker to distance, quicker to write off the small stuff as beneath my dignity, quicker to rise above things and take a philosophical view.

[Edit: I know INFPs can be dramatic; but that tends to run shallow. ISFPs can be cyclothymic; that can also be shallow but it's quickly and easily triggered.]

Consider for example how Tolstoy would preoccupy himself with the problem of evil and many other problems of human nature. He would derive great aesthetical joy and much grief from such contemplation, as his novels clearly reflected.

This is much less common among SFs on the following grounds as well,

I would argue that the emotional life of NFs is richer than that of SFs because NFs are able to apply their passions to more entities than SFs simply because their imagination allows them more access to entities that could serve as breeding ground and for their emotions (as well as direct sources) than SFs have.

 

[SolitaryWalker]

Blue Wing,
You make it sound as though INFP's in particular, are at the mercy of their emotions, just lying in there in a puddle of drool, as wave after wave of feeling washes over them..

How do you figure?

Obviously everyone uses Thinking, INFPs with much less competence than most types, yet they are not completely devoid rationality.

 

[SillySapienne]

Wing, would you say that yourself, being an INTP with dormant Fe are a socially inept, emotional idiot, then?

 

[SolitaryWalker]

Wing, would you say that yourself, being an INTP with inferior Fe is a socially inept, emotional idiot, then?

Generally is the case with INTPs. Towards older age some may overcome this, but I would not hold my breath.

 

[SillySapienne]

Generally is the case with INTPs. Towards older age some may overcome this, but I would not hold my breath.

You weren't supposed to answer my question that way, damn you!!!

And you also quoted my post before I corrected my grammatical error, damn you straight to hell!!!

 

[CrystalViolet]

Have you met an INFP in real life?

 

[SolitaryWalker]

Have you met an INFP in real life?

I've dated one for over a year and used to be around them all the time...