[Fi] Fi: You only get it if you got it

[SolitaryWalker]

Please forgive me for not reading the +10 pages before this post, I apologize if this post is a re-tread on topic already touched upon.

Yes, you're right here. I used Thinking as a tool to explain Introverted Feeling, but the process described is still undoubtedly Introverted Feeling.

Okay, this argument finally makes sense now. The reason that we have a disagreement is because you think Fi is an emotion, and I think that Fi is acting upon that said emotion.

Here's the problem though. Introverted Feeling acts upon values. These values are wrought from emotion. The reason that XXFP's are emotional in the manner you describe is because the manner in which Fi works is basically akin to emotionally blackmailing yourself (think about how I would have felt if I didn't go to my grandmother's funeral). Thus, after us XXFP's have had our hearts crushed in several times we learn that it might be better for us if we heed this emotion and as time goes on we may even trust our emotions as a compass to make decisions. Out of these emotions, we form values that we live by and the process that we use to decide if the importance of the value is greater than the importance of logic is Introverted Feeling.

I'm also going to close with some food-for-thought in the form of an excerpt of a list from a book where Thinkers and Feelers are being explained in a form of contrasting bullet points.

[/list]

Emotions in themselvs do not have a clear structure, therefore it is not possible to act upon only values. When you stand by your values, you are analyzing your feelings, therefore using Feeling and Thinking. When an F does not use Thinking properly, to structure their values, they merely act on impulses.

 

[redacted]

Most people don't get that Feeling and Thinking work in tandem, somehow.

Not to mention not knowing the definitions.

 

[Moiety]

Fi in itself does lack critical thinking skills, however Fi people may cultivate their critical thinking skills by developing their Thinking function. The rebellious behavior you mention in most case is a result of precisely such a development. Before having developed Thinking to a certain degree, Fi people tend to go with the flow in order to please others.

Well I can't say I've been there. At all, actually. What I don't get is why do you associate Fi with pleasing others, when it's, from my very limited understanding (I can't claim to be a MBTI expert, but the theory must have a logic to it...), the most selfish of the functions. "My way or the high way".

 

[SolitaryWalker]

You should be embarrassed by your utter lack of cooperation with true rationality.
You're an F anyway.
You've demonstrated that elsewhere.

For the last time -- and I mean it, this is the last time the forum will ever hear me say these words; from now on, everyone else is either going to have to figure it out, or have someone else tell them -- I don't have any interest in proving my points / sharing my knowledge to underlings such as yourself.

Typically I find that most people are good sports about my evasion of explanation. Those people almost invariably receive, upon request, a fully thorough and reasonable analysis on ____. On the other hand, you, The Poriferan and Bluedogma, among others, give such a miraculously entertaining show when fuddled by me that it's just plain irresistible. I can't help myself but attempt what you so inaccurately dubbed as 'proof by assertion.'

I assure you, as someone who has, and continues to trounce every intellectual, mechanical, or mathematical problem that ever has and ever does come my way, I can say with a great deal of security that I, by no means, apparent or otherwise, avert objectivity.
Keeping it to myself as retaliation against non-cooperation with the initial attempts to be rational is not, (and if you're really an NT you'll be able to accept this as quickly as you read it) proof of dearth in rationality.



In summary: I don't care that anything I say upsets you. I'm being altruistic in telling you you're wasting your time telling me.

You are an exceptionally clear-thinker! Unfortunately I managed to discover no more than one coherent sentence in your entire post that I have cited.

This is because, no doubt, your scrutiny of thought has gotten so profound that it has become unintelligible!

Sincere and humble admirer,
BW.

 

[nonsequitur]

How exactly does that follow???

Like you equate Ti with "critical reasoning skills", is Fi not equatable with "empathy"?

I just swopped the terms. And by definition, someone without empathy is a sociopath. Bingo. Logical as you asserted!

BlueWing, if you think most people with primary Ti have a "clear structure" through which they make their decisions, you are greatly mistaken and have no link to reality. There is no verbalised, justifiable, coherent structure to that decision-making process. Much like Fi.

I've decided to stop following this thread because the emotionality and insensibility of it all is making my nose itch. Funnily enough, most of it is coming from XNTPs. *yawns* That said, NFs aren't much better.

Back to bed.

 

[SolitaryWalker]

This is exactly the kind of inductive idiocy I get so pissed about. You and CC both make this mistake.

Just because Feeling isn't rational, doesn't mean an F can't be rational. It means most of the time they're not, but still some of the time they can, and often are adroitly so, very rational.

Wrong.
You don't care what I have to say.
And y'know something chotch, you're almost alone.


Again you make the mistake of thinking I care whether you approve of me.

Homeboy,

Didums is not an F. (PM or IM me for further discussion on the matter, that is if you wish to see an argument in favor of that thesis in tedious detail).

The qualities which led you to infer he may be an F are to be related to his age, which is 16.

Give him another 5 years and he'll be worth 5 of you.

 

[SolitaryWalker]

Like you equate Ti with "critical reasoning skills", is Fi not equatable with "empathy"?

I just swopped the terms. And by definition, someone without empathy is a sociopath. Bingo. Logical as you asserted!

BlueWing, if you think most people with primary Ti have a "clear structure" through which they make their decisions, you are greatly mistaken and have no link to reality. There is no verbalised, justifiable, coherent structure to that decision-making process. Much like Fi.

I've decided to stop following this thread because the emotionality and insensibility of it all is making my nose itch. Funnily enough, most of it is coming from XNTPs. *yawns* That said, NFs aren't much better.

Back to bed.

Generally people with inferior F have low empathy, though not low enough to be sociopathic. People with inferior T tend to lack comptence at reasoning skills enough to be considered irrational, but they are certainly not entirely devoid of rationality.

 

[SolitaryWalker]

I'm not devaluing Fi in any way shape or form at ALL. What I was merely trying to say was since most people have encountered Ti logic it is pretty easily understood and learned. Most people however are not familiar with Fi logic so I thought it was necessary for their to be sort a bridge to help me and others understand it( a lot of other posters did a great job of that, by the way) But my original intent in bringing this up was to show that CC did in fact ask specifically for Ti logic and when some people tried to explain it in that manner she got frustrated as did others. The funny thing is most of the "insightful" posts that were referenced actually were very logically plausible unlike her own attempts.

There is no Fi logic, Fi is merely a sentiment. The logical reasoning of Fi people is diffficult to understand because Fi people tend to struggle with logical reasoning, therefore their ideas are unclear and for this reason difficult for others to understand.

 

[SillySapienne]

You are absolutely correct! My view of Fi is different from theirs!

I think that my beliefs are true because I have an argument to support them, and I do not see how it can be refuted at this point, nor has anyone showed how this can be done with competence.

They on the other hand hae not presented an argument, only foundationless opinions.

One may say, they are Fi doms, they must know how that function works! No, not really! In order to properly understand how one's mind works, intellectual honesty and skill at logical analysis are required, so far they have shown no evidence of neither.

Wing, I just don't think you are being fair, here, honestly.

No one here is trying to build a logically sound argument for, wait, what would we be arguing, anyhow?!?

Some of us are describing how we experience Fi, that is all, and what is wrong with discussing experiential stuff and opinions rather than arguing concrete objective facts?

Fi in itself does lack critical thinking skills, however Fi people may cultivate their critical thinking skills by developing their Thinking function. The rebellious behavior you mention in most case is a result of precisely such a development. Before having developed Thinking to a certain degree, Fi people tend to go with the flow in order to please others.

Hmm, I don't know if it is due to my Fi, or my being the youngest of three daughters, but I rarely sweat the small stuff, meaning, I often go with the flow when it comes to matters that I feel are of little consequence.

I would say that over all, despite how passionate and stubborn I can at times be, I am pretty chill, when in a group of people, I will gladly follow and appease if that makes the group happier, but I must stress that I only do this with decisions that i find frivolous in nature.

Most people don't get that Feeling and Thinking work in tandem, somehow.

Not to mention not knowing the definitions.

My sentiments, exactly!!!

Like you equate Ti with "critical reasoning skills", is Fi not equatable with "empathy"?

I just swopped the terms. And by definition, someone without empathy is a sociopath. Bingo. Logical as you asserted!

BlueWing, if you think most people with primary Ti have a "clear structure" through which they make their decisions, you are greatly mistaken and have no link to reality. There is no verbalised, justifiable, coherent structure to that decision-making process. Much like Fi.

I've decided to stop following this thread because the emotionality and insensibility of it all is making my nose itch. Funnily enough, most of it is coming from XNTPs. *yawns* That said, NFs aren't much better.

Back to bed.

This man makes interesting points, I think.

Homeboy,

Didums is not an F. (PM or IM me for further discussion on the matter, that is if you wish to see an argument in favor of that thesis in tedious detail).

The qualities which led you to infer he may be an F are to be related to his age, which is 16.

Give him another 5 years and he'll be worth 5 of you.

 

[SolitaryWalker]

No how about you read up on what psychology is. Matter of fact do yourself a favor and look at Blackmail!'s excellent arguments against bluewing, because clearly you don't know what the flying fuck you're talking about.

What was such an argument?

 

[Simplexity]

What was such an argument?

In short the predictability of feelings. Just because something intangible does not necessarily have a direct concrete counterpart to appraise its worth does not invalidate its existence. To relate to her reasoning, just because there is an abstract term like Fi to describe a phenomena that deals with humans does not necessitate a need for a concrete counterpart to prove its existence.

 

[SolitaryWalker]

In short the predictability of feelings. Just because something intangible does not necessarily have a direct concrete counterpart to appraise its worth does not invalidate its existence. To relate to her reasoning, just because there is an abstract term like Fi to describe a phenomena that deals with humans does not necessitate a need for a concrete counterpart to prove its existence.

My response was it is true that feelings are predictable to a degree because they derive from am external object. This claim of blackmail's, I heartily endorse.

However, Feelers often have an inaccurate interpretation of what has impacted them. Some of them have vibrant imaginations and therefore imagine very complex explanations for the way their environment has influenced them. Inevitably they act on their convictions. Because of such complexities envisaged by them, their actions become difficult to predict.

Blackmail's argument was that the behavior of animals, who are all illogical is easy to predict. Thus being illogical alone does not make you unpredictable, that is true. In order to be unpredictable you must be both, illogical and imaginative. Certain humans are both, animals are just one of the those two.

Therefore animals are predictable and certain people are not.

This has not yet been addressed.

 

[SolitaryWalker]

Wing, I just don't think you are being fair, here, honestly.:

Perhaps. Though we seem to have different agendas, for this reason it appears to you that I am being unfair.

No one here is trying to build a logically sound argument for, wait, what would we be arguing, anyhow?!?:

I see.

Some of us are describing how we experience Fi, that is all, and what is wrong with discussing experiential stuff and opinions rather than arguing concrete objective facts?:

This may be a very interesting experience and therefore worth practicing and discussing, however, it is not relevant to my agenda, namely that of arriving at an objective understanding.

 

[Harmonic]

Emotions in themselvs do not have a clear structure, therefore it is not possible to act upon only values. When you stand by your values, you are analyzing your feelings, therefore using Feeling and Thinking. When an F does not use Thinking properly, to structure their values, they merely act on impulses.

I surrender.

 

[SillySapienne]

One cannot fabricate an emotional response, and if they do so, they are acting and hence are actors.

I think that I am both a "feeler" and pretty imaginative. And as weird, and "unique" as I may be, all of my fickleness and unreliable, "unpredicatble-ness", I think, is more due to my being a P, than my being an Fi user.

But still, if pressed to explain myself, all of my *seemingly* fickle actions have justifiable reasonings behind them, these justifications just might not be readily seen to the outside observer.

And, NO human being is perfectly predictable, we are just too complex to be able to be algorithmically understood.

Feelers often have an inaccurate interpretation of what has impacted them

^ This just does not apply to dom. Fi users, we are all about introspecting and mindfulness, I believe, when it comes to understanding our emotions and why we feel or felt what we feel/felt.

 

[SillySapienne]

Perhaps. Though we seem to have different agendas, for this reason it appears to you that I am being unfair.



I see.



This may be a very interesting experience and therefore worth practicing and discussing, however, it is not relevant to my agenda, namely that of arriving at an objective understanding.

F.Y.I.

How most Fi doms, I presume, would react to having or making "agendas" ----->

 

[Jack Flak]

I recommend not discussing intellectual matters with CC, if you are invested in them. The pursuit is devastating and horrible. This is just my advice to you, the internet.

 

[SolitaryWalker]

One cannot fabricate an emotional response, and if they do so, they are acting and hence are actors.

I think that I am both a "feeler" and pretty imaginative. And as weird, and "unique" as I may be, all of my fickleness and unreliable, "unpredicatble-ness", I think, is more due to my being a P, than my being an Fi user.

But still, if pressed to explain myself, all of my *seemingly* fickle actions have justifiable reasonings behind them, these justifications just might not be readily seen to the outside observer.

And, NO human being is perfectly predictable, we are just too complex to be able to be algorithmically understood.



^ This just does not apply to dom. Fi users, we are all about introspecting and mindfulness, I believe, when it comes to understanding our emotions and why we feel or felt what we feel/felt.

Let me explain again.

In order to have a clear and long lasting idea of what you are doing, you need to logically analyze your mindset. If you do not have a clear and long lasting idea, you are fickle. Many Feelers lack such a clear idea because they have not developed Thinking ot a sufficient degree.

Therefore many Fs are fickle.

 

[Thursday]

I recommend not discussing intellectual matters with CC and or Bluewing, if you are invested in them. The pursuit is devastating and horrible. This is just my advice to you, the internet.

this seems a bit more objective

 

[niffer]

I think that I am both a "feeler" and pretty imaginative. And as weird, and "unique" as I may be, all of my fickleness and unreliable, "unpredicatble-ness", I think, is more due to my being a P, than my being an Fi user.

I think Pness is better defined by impulsivity than unpredictability. Just because Ps don't rely on planning to act on things, doesn't mean their upcoming actions/reactions aren't able to be forseen.

But still, if pressed to explain myself, all of my *seemingly* fickle actions have justifiable reasonings behind them, these justifications just might not be readily seen to the outside observer.

And this is more as an effect of Fi, as your "justifications" rely on more of a sort of introspection and reasoning out of values. These are not readily seen to outside observers because although Fi weighs values, it still does not mean things will be executed rationally. This is why Fi doms can seem unpredictable.