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[Fi] Fi: You only get it if you got it

Simplexity

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I agree with CaptainChick. The values that F uses aren't just "passions." They're heuristics that are compiled based on experience and usually have logical order to them, it's just that the order is implicit, and the person doesn't always know WHY it's the right answer.

Yes that is a long the lines of what I was thinking, but at the end of the day they are usually very personalized. Correct me if I'm wrong but would it not be like judging situations by the essence of the emotions they elicit. Would the user not rely on referencing these essences and recalling or deciding how they would "logically" act based on them.

For example watching something being tortured would bring up images or "feelings" similar to things the user has experienced and from there they would act in accordance to what they would deem to be right based on these essences which are under the control of the user. Basically it seems like Fi is the impetus to act or decide/reason on things. It seems like they build more validity and "truth" based on how deep the event that left an imprint or how much self reflection was done.

Like sometimes with Ti I will forgo rigorous analysis and rely on a more heuristic process, like a template, when coming to a conclusion. Sometimes when I'm not truly familiar with a topic it seems like I call on a number of different templates that I intuitively assume would mesh well together with the situation and I used those to come up with my conclusion.
 

SillySapienne

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Ahhhhhhhhh, Ti overload, makes..my..head...hurt!!!

:wacko:
 

Simplexity

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Well Im just saying if you really want to come to a conclusion on what exactly Fi is and how it is in fact valid and a reasonable function to abide by you will have to flesh out your thoughts more. It seems like the only people that are really trying to do that are people who in fact have Ti as their dominant or axillary function. Its damn near impossible for anyone to explain something by just stating their base opinion on the matter, in terms of others understanding it.

Thats like me saying you offended me therefore I hate you and you are a terrible person. It may very well be a justified conclusion to make but the only one who will ever understand why would be me, or others who have similarly been rubbed the wrong way by you. Is it necessary or should it be up to each individual to psychoanalyze someone in order to understand why they came to a conclusion. I don't think so, I don't even necessarily think its necessary for someone to use "logic" to justify it either, I just think it needs more context and more explanation of the process.
 

Harmonic

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It is clear that the actions are a result of an emotional investment, but this does not exonerate the Fi from the charges of irrationality. Because the reasons for having such an emotional investment are illegitimate (logically invalid and often grounded on false premises), the Fi fully deserves the censure of its critics, if not ridicule. That is the point I have made to Blackmail earlier.
Okay, lets take a hypothetical example.

I have a grandmother that raised me from a very young age because both my parents died in an airplane wreck, and I love her very much. She dies. I want to mourn her death for several weeks and take several days off from work for her funeral.

Do I deserve "ridicule" because I want to pay my respects to my dead grandmother? After all, it is pretty illogical to waste away several days wages to pay to visit a dead person.

Clearly here we have an emotional investment that pushes someone to take action. My idea from the previous post is that most of these kind of situations don't have this kind of transparency, and thus receive no empathy. I didn't say that Fi is a particularly smart way to live. In retrospect, it is quite stupid to make decisions. I'd go out on a limb and say that it's like having a ball and chain on your ankle, but instead of you lugging ball and chain around, the ball and chain lugs you around.
 

SolitaryWalker

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Okay, lets take a hypothetical example.

I have a grandmother that raised me from a very young age because both my parents died in an airplane wreck, and I love her very much. She dies. I want to mourn her death for several weeks and take several days off from work for her funeral.

Do I deserve "ridicule" because I want to pay my respects to my dead grandmother? After all, it is pretty illogical to waste away several days wages to pay to visit a dead person..

In this case you have a clear-cut rationale for what you do. In this case you have used Thinking to explain your mindset. Fis generally tend not to do this. Therefore your set of statements is not emblematic of the Fi modus operandi.
 

Blackmail!

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Law 1:

Spot a famous philosopher that had a deep influence on mankind history. Ask Bluewing which type would he/she possibly be.

Expected answer:

INTP of course.

---

Law 2:

Rub Bluewing the wrong way: Say that you do not agree with him, that he may have missed a point.

Predictable answer:

The problem here appears to be that you lack the proper reasoning skills to understand the process.

---

Conclusion: interesting subject to make experimentations with, very reliable, although in complete self-denial.
 

SolitaryWalker

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Law 1:

Spot a famous philosopher that had a deep influence on mankind history. Ask Bluewing which type would he/she possibly be.

Expected answer:



---

Law 2:

Rub Bluewing the wrong way: Say that you do not agree with him, that he may have missed a point.

Predictable answer:



---

Conclusion: interesting subject to make experimentations with, very reliable, although in complete self-denial.

Tell me more !
 

Harmonic

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In this case you have a clear-cut rationale for what you do. In this case you have used Thinking to explain your mindset. Fis generally tend not to do this. Therefore your set of statements is not emblematic of the Fi modus operandi.
So the grief that I feel about my grandmother's death has no emotion in it at all?

The idea of my first post is that all Fi values have an inborn reason that pushes the operator to consider the value greater than logic. The reason that these values seem irrational is because the persuading reason to act illogically is usually hidden inside the operator instead of being transparent to the public. To keep it short, emotion is irrational, acting upon it isn't (if we define rational as in acting upon something because of a reason).

The reason I provided the grandmother example was because I wanted to demonstrate that acting on such values can be understood. Note how this is in contrast to my lifeguarding experience where my reason for breaking logic (nostalgia of times swimming w/family) wasn't disclosed to my co-workers, causing them not to understand why I didn't approve of taking unwarranted breaks, who clearly saw my actions as irrational.
 

SolitaryWalker

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So the grief that I feel about my grandmother's death has no emotion in it at all?

The idea of my first post is that all Fi values have an inborn reason that pushes the operator to consider the value greater than logic. The reason that these values seem irrational is because the persuading reason to act illogically is usually hidden inside the operator instead of being transparent to the public. To keep it short, emotion is irrational, acting upon it isn't (if we define rational as in acting upon something because of a reason).

The reason I provided the grandmother example was because I wanted to demonstrate that acting on such values can be understood. Note how this is in contrast to my lifeguarding experience where my reason for breaking logic (nostalgia of times swimming w/family) wasn't disclosed to my co-workers, causing them not to understand why I didn't approve of taking unwarranted breaks, who clearly saw my actions as irrational.

In this case the emotional reaction does clearly correspond with the occurence in the external world. However, in most cases of Fi emoting it does not.
 

SillySapienne

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And who just gave this thread one star?!?!!?

:azdaja:

I shall slaughter you and baste you and broil you and eat you for DINNAAAAAAA!!!
 

Blackmail!

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In this case the emotional reaction does clearly correspond with the occurence in the external world. However, in most cases of Fi emoting it does not.

Can you prove it?

---

I'd rather take the opposite stance: every emotions correspond to what happens in the "external world". Every emotions could be explained, theorized, and they constantly affect our perceptions, even our ability to rationalize (which can switch according to our current mood, for instance).
The question is whether we are aware of this or not.

Emotions aren't random streams coming out of nowhere. And I'd guess that even Fi, I mean inner values, are the result of an empirical process. They are shaped according to our own mental history, and how we have interpreted it.
 

Harmonic

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In this case the emotional reaction does clearly correspond with the occurence in the external world. However, in most cases of Fi emoting it does not.
So you agree with me?

My idea was that while most people just don't make the connection of emotional cause and the value being acted upon, the process of Introverted Feeling is still the same. The reason that Introverted Feeling is pegged as irrational, and by extension, misunderstood, is because the emotional occurrence isn't recognized by the observer.
 

SolitaryWalker

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Can you prove it?

---

I'd rather take the opposite stance: every emotions correspond to what happens in the "external world". Every emotions could be explained, theorized, and they constantly affect our perceptions, even our ability to rationalize (which can switch according to our current mood, for instance).
The question is whether we are aware of this or not.

Emotions aren't random streams coming out of nowhere. And I'd guess that even Fi, I mean inner values, are the result of an empirical process. They are shaped according to our own mental history, and how we have interpreted it.

Let me explain again. This, I believe was the part of our discussion that you were not clearly aware of before.

Consider the following, I go down the street and get hit by a brick that fell from a two story building. I saw construction workers operating there.

If I am a rational person, I will investigate the situation to see what has happened. Suppose what has happened is that a construction worker has accidentally knocked over a brick and it fell on my head. I would need to collect information and analyze it in order to discover this truth.

If I am an irrational person, I will not investigate the situation to see what has happened. If I am irrational, I could come up with just about anything to explain why I got hit with a brick. For example, I may assume that the construction worker was trying to kill me, or that God is trying to punish me.

In order to be rational we must use our Thinking function properly. Feelers often fail to do this. Therefore they have mistaken notions about the causes of occurences around them and ground the justifications for their actions on illegitimate reasons because of this.

Consider the following example. An irrational person may ground his hostility towards the construction worker in the example above because of his conviction that the construction worker was trying to kill him.

In summary, all emotional reactions are a direct result of an external stimulus, I never maintained otherwise. However, in order to properly understand the stimulus, rational thinking is required.

The reason I call Feelers random is because they act on convictions that do not accurately depict their external circumstances. For example, the construction worker from the previous example may think the hostility of the irrational person towards him is random, or not relevant to the circumstances of realiy. He may think that the idea that he wanted to kill the person that he accidentally hit with the brick is random, or not a reasonable inference from the actual circumstances.

In this case it is easy to see why somebody would make such an irrational inference. However, this is indeed an elementary case. Under more complex circumstances, irrational people make inferrences that are much more difficult to connect to circumstances of reality.

Religious texts offer ample evidence for this phenomenon.
 

SolitaryWalker

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So you agree with me?

My idea was that while most people just don't make the connection of emotional cause and the value being acted upon, the process of Introverted Feeling is still the same. The reason that Introverted Feeling is pegged as irrational, and by extension, misunderstood, is because the emotional occurrence isn't recognized by the observer.

In this case you have used Thinking to explain your behavior. It was not just Feeling.

Fi people can be rational if they use their Thinking, as your example shows.

However, too often they neglect to do so.

The reason that Introverted Feeling is pegged as irrational, and by extension, misunderstood, is because the emotional occurrence isn't recognized by the observer.


A more adequate way of putting it is that the thoughts of the Introverted Feeler (Introverted Feeling has no thoughts, though an Introverted Feeling person does have thoughts because he also has a Thinking function) are not clearly expressed, as most of us tend not to be overtly expressive of our inferior function. For this reason, in some cases legitimate justifications for behavior of the Introverted Feeler are not noticed.

However, in most cases the justifications the Introverted Feeler advances in favor of his story are illegitimate because he lacks the Thinking skills, as is common for us to lack skills associated with our inferior function.
 

Jack Flak

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ZOMG!!!

Fi respects the truth more than anything, that's right, a-n-y-t-h-i-n-g!!!!
No. Thinking favors objectivity (as opposed to Feeling), thus favors the truth. I don't expect you'll ever accept this, being who you are, but it is true.
 

SillySapienne

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In order to be rational we must use our Thinking function properly. Feelers often fail to do this. Therefore they have mistaken notions about the causes of occurences around them and ground the justifications for their actions on illegitimate reasons because of this.
:rolli:

Feelers are not stupid, irrational beings, sorry hon, hate to burst your highly prejudiced bubble.

Feeling and thinking are inextricably intertwined mental processes. Every thought has a corresponding emotion, and every emotion has a corresponding thought.

Unless of course you are Mersault, in Camus' The Stranger. ;)
 

SillySapienne

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No. Thinking favors objectivity (as opposed to Feeling), thus favors the truth. I don't expect you'll ever accept this, being who you are, but it is true.
Thinkers dispute what's true, while Feelers sense/see/understand the truth.

The end.

-CC
 

Simplexity

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This thread should be retitled Fi and Ti: They will never come to agreement as long as they stick to their own defenses.
 
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