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  1. #641
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabe View Post
    oh, yes your definitions, I'm sorry I never read your definitions
    It would be better, I think, if you read mine, and never read Jung's. Easy understanding and less analysis fail.

  2. #642
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by toonia View Post
    I was raised by a family that I *think* are all Fi dominant (some are for certain), and I test rather high on that function (likely as a result). Certain differences come out during conflict. Fi is empathetic, but from a specific vantage point. It seems to have a somewhat constructed concept of the subjective world with strong opinions about it. It has arrived at certain conclusions that fit its model. The empathy is quite strong for those things that fit into its model, but for those things that fall outside, there can be breaks in the empathy. I think the difficulty in describing Fi results from the way a subjective model of the world is constructed based on so much nuance and those things which defy measurement. Fi can produce some of the gentlest, kindest people, but these are sometimes people for whom admitting a flaw or some way in which they have not measured up to their ideal is especially traumatic. When something conflicts with that model of the world it is sometimes emotionally necessary for Fi to lash out.
    I've been wondering abou this, as Fe as the shadow of Fi (in eight function theory) is the "witch" for ENFP's and the "opposing personality" for INFP's. When others use these functions, it would supposedly feel like an "attack" or "low blow" to them.
    So is it especially hard for them to admit flaws when some Fe dominant person shoots sharp criticism at them, like being "selfish" or "inconsiderate"? Is that when they lash out? Or do they just ignore the criticism and stubbornly cling to their ideal image? Then also, how do INTP's compare, with their aspirational Fe and bottom place (destructive) Fi? It wouldn't be about measuring up to their own ideal, but more about the "object". But in destructive mode, it would be about their inner ideal.
    But then, in the actual CP tests, most of the INTP's have Fe as the very weakest, with Fi in the middle. (I had both Fi and Fe near the middle).

    So how do the other INTP's handle such criticism?
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

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  3. #643
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    wow, what a thread And a very interesting topic.


    Note: for the essence of this post, skip to the end

    I'm relatively new here, and an ENFP as well. Fi is hard to explain. That being said, I'm glad Fineline tried. I think you're about as close as it can get.

    When I read through this thread, I couldn't help but smile. This thread invokes some deja-vus for me. I've always had problems explaining my point of view to my very T-oriented family members.


    (Disclaimer: I do not mean to insult anyone with this analogy)

    The topic of this thread is kind of comparable with the teaching of a new language. What I mean is, CC is asking other native speaking Fi's how to teach Fi to others who would be interested in learning it.

    It is comparable to you as an English speaker wanting to learn Chinese. It has a completely different way of forming sentences, the way the 'grammar' is structured (and therefore their way of thinking in that language) is completely foreign to you and it is hard to memorize the words as they have at least five meanings depending on the context.

    In this case, CC will be your instructor, but she is asking other chinese native speakers on how to go about it, as it is so different from the English language.

    Now, as she starts explaining things, it doesn't make sense. Some of you will try and have her translate what she is saying to English. But some of those words do not have an equivalent in the English language (Chi, anyone?) And you start wondering...why am I bothering with this language? It is not like English won't get me everywhere anyway. Half the globe speaks it. So, eventually, you quit the class. When you finally make that dreamtrip to China, however, you are very much annoyed at the broken English they speak and consider their English very much inferior to yours..which makes sense. But I wonder if some of you then consider the following: Their English might be inferior, but my Chinese is worse.

    It is true that the thinking function is appreciated and used more by society. I personally have to wonder if this is for the best. My "English" isn't so great, but I do try. But it saddens me that I will never be able to explain and share the magnificient concepts and ideas hidden in "Chinese" with you, as you just do not consider it 'necessary' to know, beyond maybe some basic expressions.


    This is my very round about way of saying: If you are willing to suffer through my broken T function instead of pointing out my flaws every time I open my mouth, I will most happily show you the wonderful world of Fi and show you how to communicate with me in my own tongue


    Just my two cents
    Amargith
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  4. #644
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    ^ Phenomenal post!!!!


    A song that resonates with my Fi-ness

    YouTube - Tracy Chapman - Mountains O'Things (acoustic)

    `
    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

    Veritatem dies aperit

    Ride si sapis

    Intelligentle sparkles

  5. #645

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    ^^ agree

    Very few non-Fi can understand Fi and very few of us can explain it in English. But we know we love it. And we are at home in the presence of others who speak it.

  6. #646
    Senior Member Simplexity's Avatar
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    Lol but don't you know there is a very respectable profession in translating. Many languages have things that can only be expressed by means of terminology only available to the specific languages themselves.

    In fact if I'm not mistaken most philosophy requires a rigorous amount of translation that interprets the essence of the original text to the best degree possible. Does it ever match the meaning of what was intended with perfect precision? No, but the translators in most cases do a phenomenal job.

    Just because something is embedded in a concept or ideology that is not easily transcribed or representable in common diction does not mean it cannot be understood to a certain degree. In fact Jung and Freud did most of their work on dream interpretation, a skill that involves numerous transformations, making sense of the often incomprehensible nature of dreams.

    The inability to translate Fi in terms others can understand lies not in its nature but more so its translator, and there are some exceptional Fi translators out there.
    My cold, snide, intellectual life is just a veneer, behind which lies the plywood of loneliness.

  7. #647
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Grin, that post was actually written by a translator, who happens to be a Fi, btw

    But you are right, it is possible to translate it to a certain degree. However, as a translator, I am always saddened by what you lose in translation. It is less when you translate from Germanic language into Germanic language, because they are related. But when I have to translate from Russian to English...it saddens me that there just are no words in English to express the richness of Russian. I'm one of those translators that tries to stick as close as possible to the original text in an attempt to convey as much as possible. This however, sometimes makes the text in the target language sound... a bit exotic and therefore not an easy read for the audience.

    As I am an Fi myself, and I absolutely love it in all its depth and mirage of colours, it breaks my heart to have to compromise in order to translate it. Though it might be necessary, I remain hopeful to find a way to explain it to you T's in a way that makes you see and experience it in the same way we do
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





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  8. #648
    Senior Member Simplexity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    As I am an Fi myself, and I absolutely love it in all its depth and mirage of colours, it breaks my heart to have to compromise in order to translate it. Though it might be necessary, I remain hopeful to find a way to explain it to you T's in a way that makes you see and experience it in the same way we do
    The hope is to see some depth, we can't be selfish or foolish enough to expect to uncover and understand all its intricacies. I feel as if there were some sufficient if not descriptive translations, for myself anyways. You did an excellent job in explaining some of the difficulties in translation as well I might add.

    The concept of experiencing that which we do not have is somewhat of a fallacy. If this thread were titled "you only experience it if you have it" I would agree whole heartedly. Anyways before I get on another little tangent it is always great to see other people attempt to explain things that I don't understand/have.

    Judging by some of the wording you used do you experience it sort of like a symphony. Do situations that elicit emotional responses from you have a number of little subtle tones and differences with which you can independently assess, or is more like an amalgamation that forms only a solid emotion.

    How much control do you have over your responses and how do they influence your thinking?

    Is your thinking clear and steady almost static?

    Do your heart and emotions run wild and rampant while your mind sort of acts as a processor with your emotional state being the controls?
    My cold, snide, intellectual life is just a veneer, behind which lies the plywood of loneliness.

  9. #649
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Thank you

    What you have to understand about Feelers though that experiencing is part of the language. One of the reasons I have trouble translating Russian to English is not so much the vocabulary (although that is a big part), but also because of the entire cultural mindset behind it. I want my readers to almost taste that and experience it fully, which is something English doesn't lend itself to.

    Fi is the same. You can scratch the surface by analyzing it, but in fact, it is so much more than just feeling. When you compare it to a symphony, I'd say you are dead on. But in our case it is a symphony of perceptions, various feelings, feedbacks from people and feedback from our own values, mixed in with a little T to be able to make a little sense of it (this varies from Fi to Fi). So it is very hard to seperate it from the rest of the functions.


    "Do situations that elicit emotional responses from you have a number of little subtle tones and differences with which you can independently assess, or is more like an amalgamation that forms only a solid emotion."

    Both You first get all the different subtones in which you just undergo and experience. Once all the 'data' has been received and you do use a minimal amount of T here to give it all its proper place in your mind/heart, you are able to enjoy/suffer the full extent of it. Kinda like a good perfume First you have the fresh notes, then the warm middle, finished off with a great earthy base tone.

    As to your questions, I'm going to give you the link to another topic where I think I answered them all. If not, let me know where I need to elaborate


    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...feeler-12.html
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





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  10. #650
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimahn View Post
    The hope is to see some depth, we can't be selfish or foolish enough to expect to uncover and understand all its intricacies. I feel as if there were some sufficient if not descriptive translations, for myself anyways. You did an excellent job in explaining some of the difficulties in translation as well I might add.

    The concept of experiencing that which we do not have is somewhat of a fallacy. If this thread were titled "you only experience it if you have it" I would agree whole heartedly. Anyways before I get on another little tangent it is always great to see other people attempt to explain things that I don't understand/have.

    Judging by some of the wording you used do you experience it sort of like a symphony. Do situations that elicit emotional responses from you have a number of little subtle tones and differences with which you can independently assess, or is more like an amalgamation that forms only a solid emotion.

    How much control do you have over your responses and how do they influence your thinking?

    Is your thinking clear and steady almost static?

    If I understand correctly, we "have" access to all 8 functions and we all use them, but the functions in our shadow are the ones we are not conscious of using, do not want to develop, and often see as negatives in others who use them, even if these others are using them well. If you're an INTP, then you have access to Fi, but it's going to take you a lot of effort to recognize that this function has worth to you, and you'll find yourself resisting using it, let alone wanting to use it positively. When you do use it (unconsciously), it tends to be in a negative way because it's not something you rely on and trust. And vice versa with me and Ti.

    My reasoning is clear and steady. If I value something, it's because I've considered lots of subtle factors that might influence whether it's innately valuable or worthless, but this taking into account isn't a long process of analytical deliberation -- sometimes (often) it's an instant sense of just knowing whether something has innate value or not. I feel I have a lot of control over my responses because they come from inside me and are not the product of other people telling me what to think. I consider what's in front of me and make up my own mind about whether I truly value a situation, a person, an idea, an emotional state, or a decision. I can also feel free to change my mind about these things at a later date, because I am capable of re-evaluating my own thoughts.

    I don't experience "feeling" as just being a swirling bundle of emotion. My mind is occupied with thoughts that are certainly connected with my emotions, but not the same things AS emotions. My emotions don't drive them -- it's the other way around. A lot of times I make very quick decisions about whether something's worth valuing, because I don't stand there and deliberate over all the pros and cons like a debater -- something just instantly strikes me as NOT being at all in line with what I understand to be worthwhile, or with what makes me feel joy in living, so I immediately reject it.

    It's kind of impossible to engage in Fi and Ti at the same time, and that using one of those functions to a high degree necessitates not using the other. You can't be both completely objective and subjective at the same time.

    Sarah
    ISFP

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