User Tag List

First 13536162636465 Last

Results 621 to 630 of 650

  1. #621

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainChick View Post
    They don't then explain to you why things are "not cool", "messed-up" or "feel-wrong"?

    When something just *feels* wrong/off to me, I cannot logically justify it because it usually stems from my having a deep sense/intuition about something that I don't yet fully understand, however whenever I view something as being not cool, or messed up I can always rationally back it up as to why this is so in whatever extenuating circumstances.
    Usually, they can only explain it when I get it inherently any way. When I have to ask "why," the usual response is "it just is."

    It is true in my situation as well that "not cool" and "messed up" are a lot easier than "feels wrong" to understand and accept.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  2. #622
    RDF
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FineLine View Post
    His novels are usually translated with more heat than the original Russian because they capture an imperial period. But in fact the original Russian is actually rather dull and carefully controlled. Tolstoy hated high society and considered it immoral and dissolute, so he deliberately tried to portray it as colorless and dull.
    Just to expand on this point:

    Tolstoy is one of the most mistranslated of the great writers.

    Compare the French writer Marcel Proust. Proust was one of the last observers of imperial France, and he knew it. And he loved the old royal French society. So he wrote "Remembrance of Things Past" to immortalize that period as though in a photograph. His descriptions of French high society are rich and satisfying.

    By comparison, Tolstoy was one of the last observers of imperial Russia, and he didn't know it. He thought the democratic stirrings of the mid-19th century were a fad and a waste of time. He thought the monarchy would last forever; he didn't realize it would be cut short by revolution soon after his death.

    Meantime, he hated it for moral reasons. So he always wrote about in dull, thudding vocabulary that was meant to grate on the reader's ears. By comparison, what he loved was the peasant life. So in "Anna Karenina," Anna's story in high society is written in low vocabulary and the society itself is portrayed as dissolute and unhappy; the story of Levin's life among the peasants, on the other hand, is written in rich, flowing, musical vocabulary.

    But modern-day translators tend to treat Tolstoy like Proust. They see in him the last witness of a rich exotic past (the high society of imperial Russia), so they translate Anna's story in rich flowing prose and totally miss the irony that Tolstoy was trying to convey. Meantime they find it tough to keep up with the richness of Levin's part of the novel and quickly sink to the most prosaic of agricultural terms. In effect, they turn the novel upside down.

    So it's tough to judge Tolstoy by his English translations. You really have to go back to the original language and see what he was trying to convey.

    Just FYI.

  3. #623
    / nonsequitur's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Enneagram
    512 sp/so
    Posts
    1,819

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Aimahn View Post
    Holy shit there goes your F completely disregarding what I said. You in fact even proved my point in your post! you have strong thinking skills that allowed you to excel in school. When you read or write is it not necessary to do it in the most coherent way possible? do you not do that through thinking? while obviously being dominant F or T you fine tune on different aspects while doing so, you still largely do these things as a result of thinking. I'm not trying to state that since I'm a dominant T user that I'm smarter, quite the contrary. I'm saying that it is necessary to take in to account the actual words the other person is saying and you do that through thinking, at least the base core of their logic.
    In my experience, it is not Ti that dictates whether or not something is coherent. It is experience and language ability. Someone might write something completely logical, but still get a crap grade because they suck at explaining themselves (mostly Ti-dominants). Also, some of the best writers are INFPs and INFJs. Are you saying that they're using thinking to "make everything coherent"? On the contrary, I think it is the Fi that makes everything emotionally coherent. Not the Ti. Not even the grammar is Ti-driven, because that's again, a matter of linguistic ability.

    Also, in my personal experience, I don't use my Ti for determining whether something is coherent or not, or for understanding concepts. I have Ni for that. Ti comes along only when I spot inconsistencies. i.e. I don't need Ti most of the time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aimahn View Post
    When I am engaging my thinking I obviously take in to account my Fe, right now I'm a little perturbed that you mentioned me being an "elitist" and it is evident in my post. Bluewing's emotional state is very evident in a lot of his posts despite his obvious Ti skills because we engage BOTH my point was that whatever we do as humans utilizes both, but the core of what we do at advanced levels requires competence in thinking, so Feelers are actually at a heads up in that department because they are FORCED to utilize it through education and speaking, arguing, reasoning and so on. Dominant thinkers are not necessarily forced to build up their weaker Feeling through socializing. They can and a lot of times do avoid trying then end up being socially inept yet they still can succeed in life, try avoiding thinking at its most basic level and see where that gets you.
    Yes, it is evident that you're perturbed. It was also evident from my previous post that I was perturbed, and from many other Fi-user posts that they were perturbed and received the same impression as me of your's and BlueWing's posts. This impression is as follows: People who don't develop their thinking will fail at life. People who don't develop their feeling can still succeed at life. Therefore people who start out as thinkers are at a distinct advantage.

    I disagreed in that I said that people who are completely unempathetic are sociopaths (and will probably end up in jail or fuck everyone around them in the head, regardless of "professional" success). You are defining "success" very narrowly, of course - which illustrates how different your perspective is from any feeler's. Therefore there is no distinction between having no feeling function and no thinking function.

    i.e. By thinking that your definition of success (going to college, having professional success and money) is the only one on earth, you and BlueWing are being elitist.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aimahn View Post
    Disclaimer: just in case you're F is still on fire. Do you not agree that some dominant T users are completely inept in using their F function, can they still succeed and be successful? YES. is it optimal no but highly plausible.

    Do you know of any dominant F's that are completely inept with T skills? are they still very successful? probably not.
    Yes, my tertiary Fi is still on fire. My professor is completely inept with F, and everyone hates his guts. He gets no respect and everyone sneers at his cluelessness. If you count that as being "successful" just based on his professional position, good for you.

    Dominant Fs that are completely inept with T skills? Maybe the President of the United States of America. (joke. Well, half-joke.)

    Yes, I have friends who are dominant Fes who are completely inept with thinking (by my standard) but have built so many connections that the money keeps pouring in. Not so much in this recession, but before that. Also my Fe-dominant friends who've married rich guys back home. That was their goal in life. Can't say they're not "successful".

    Quote Originally Posted by Aimahn View Post
    And I'm talking to the point of not recognizing and avoiding using thinking, and when using it still inept. I'm sure everyone knows a couple of T's that are like this with feeling but I doubt you would find many F's like this who aren't retarded. Iq tests measure your Ti and Te skills to a large degree if you are competent in that then you are competent in thinking, if you are not you will most likely not have a high chance of succeeding in life. As you know all types can excel in IQ tests which measures your THINKING not your feeling in MBTI sense but THINKING and once again I reiterate you have to be COMPETENT not excellent, remarkable, great, not even good just COMPETENT.
    Refer to paragraph above about sociopaths.

  4. #624
    lab rat extraordinaire CrystalViolet's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    MBTI
    XNFP
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/sp
    Posts
    2,170

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by nonsequitur View Post
    OK, from the Ni/Te perspective:

    Situation: A salesman comes to the door, selling some pyramid scheme to people. He's very enthusiastic, dresses well, is impressive.

    Fi-user: Doesn't buy the scheme because she/he sees that person react in a number of different ways, e.g. shifty eyes, keeps glancing at his watch, insincerity, etc. Fi user doesn't classify these observations, simply gets the impression on the gut level that this guy is a wanker and should not be trusted. Fi user relies on this "reasonable" judgment to make the decision to flip the guy off, but cannot explain "why" because they simply do not classify their observations in a manner that the Ti will understand.

    Ti-user: Dissects the pyramid scheme, points out logical inconsistencies, finds the guy a sham and flips him off. Also a reasonable response. Could conceivably explain the reasons why this scheme would not work to an Fi-user, but the Fi-user has already moved beyond that initial judgment of "shifty guy" into "I don't care, I've already made the decision".

    That is part of the reason why I personally think that BlueWing's descriptions are so waaaaaaaaaaay off. He has no personal experience of Fi, as can be seen from his descriptions of it in a reductionistic Ti manner. Also, I find in no way that Fi users are less prepared for the world because they're unable to be reductionistic ("using critical thinking"). If anything, they read people well because of their ability to read cues that may not be verbal.

    Situation 2: Person sitting at the desk, their grandmother just passed away.

    Fi-user: Something has just happened to that person, I can't really explain why... must be empathy. Actual way it "works": Fi-user observes slightly slumped shoulders, tense jaw, an unusual focus and frown. Fi-user concludes that something bad must've happened.

    Ti-user: Person did not come into work, and boss explained that a personal matter has come up. Must be something bad.

    Situation 2 basically describes my experience. I wasn't "freaked out" by my ENFP friend's "intuition" or "empathy" because I knew that she reads people well, and I don't have the best control over myself when something bad happens.

    Same conclusions, different ways of arriving there.
    I just wanted to say this was insightful and illuminating.
    Currently submerged under an avalanche of books and paper work. I may come back up for air from time to time.
    Real life awaits and she is a demanding mistress.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  5. #625
    Senior Member Simplexity's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    MBTI
    INTP
    Posts
    1,741

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by nonsequitur View Post
    In my experience, it is not Ti that dictates whether or not something is coherent. It is experience and language ability. Someone might write something completely logical, but still get a crap grade because they suck at explaining themselves (mostly Ti-dominants). Also, some of the best writers are INFPs and INFJs. Are you saying that they're using thinking to "make everything coherent"? On the contrary, I think it is the Fi that makes everything emotionally coherent. Not the Ti. Not even the grammar is Ti-driven, because that's again, a matter of linguistic ability.

    Also, in my personal experience, I don't use my Ti for determining whether something is coherent or not, or for understanding concepts. I have Ni for that. Ti comes along only when I spot inconsistencies. i.e. I don't need Ti most of the time.


    Yes, it is evident that you're perturbed. It was also evident from my previous post that I was perturbed, and from many other Fi-user posts that they were perturbed and received the same impression as me of your's and BlueWing's posts. This impression is as follows: People who don't develop their thinking will fail at life. People who don't develop their feeling can still succeed at life. Therefore people who start out as thinkers are at a distinct advantage.

    I disagreed in that I said that people who are completely unempathetic are sociopaths (and will probably end up in jail or fuck everyone around them in the head, regardless of "professional" success). You are defining "success" very narrowly, of course - which illustrates how different your perspective is from any feeler's. Therefore there is no distinction between having no feeling function and no thinking function.

    i.e. By thinking that your definition of success (going to college, having professional success and money) is the only one on earth, you and BlueWing are being elitist.

    Once again I said Pass


    Yes, my tertiary Fi is still on fire. My professor is completely inept with F, and everyone hates his guts. He gets no respect and everyone sneers at his cluelessness. If you count that as being "successful" just based on his professional position, good for you.

    Dominant Fs that are completely inept with T skills? Maybe the President of the United States of America. (joke. Well, half-joke.)

    Yes, I have friends who are dominant Fes who are completely inept with thinking (by my standard) but have built so many connections that the money keeps pouring in. Not so much in this recession, but before that. Also my Fe-dominant friends who've married rich guys back home. That was their goal in life. Can't say they're not "successful".

    Did they Pass(score around 100) an IQ test?


    Refer to paragraph above about sociopaths.
    And here we see the pitfalls of Feeling you are still thinking I hate feelers and don't respect them. Why don't you calm down and READ what the fuck I said.

    Hint: Engage your T a little more and you will realize you are just reinforcing what I said.


    Alright this shit is OBVIOUSLY not getting through your head you need competence in thinking. When you write you do that through thinking mostly with T or F pushing your focus in one direction. Are you seriously trying to tell me you get through math with your F function, maybe it helps you in getting help on homework but unless you romanticize and personalize numbers I don't see how thinking is not a large driving force in that.

    Haha and I love your example of hating and not respecting(based on emotions) your professor. Who's the elitist here again? I'm not the one running around and saying I hate stupid people. There are many assholes who are very successful in life who have no clue how to relate to people but I can almost assure you they are COMPETENT in thinking. Most everyone should be, you still think that T or F means strictly Thinking or Feeling but yet you claim that your thinking trumps that of most INTPs. Can you not see just how much you are contradicting yourself, are you claiming that you don't need COMPETENT thinking skills to be emotionally intelligent.
    My cold, snide, intellectual life is just a veneer, behind which lies the plywood of loneliness.

  6. #626
    Senior Member mlittrell's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    MBTI
    ENFP
    Enneagram
    9w1
    Posts
    1,387

    Default

    BEST DEBATE EVAR!

    *sarcasm*
    "Honest differences are often a healthy sign of progress. "

    "You must not lose faith in humanity. Humanity is an ocean; if a few drops of the ocean are dirty, the ocean does not become dirty."

    "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind."

    Mahatma Gandhi

    Enneagram: 9w1

  7. #627
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    MBTI
    type
    Posts
    9,100

    Default

    I can see Aimahn's F is taking hold, as it does with all of us from time to time. But it seems he is correct.

    You can't do math with F. Everyone has T though.

  8. #628
    Senior Member Simplexity's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    MBTI
    INTP
    Posts
    1,741

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mlittrell View Post
    BEST DEBATE EVAR!

    *sarcasm*
    I'm not even tryna have a debate. Apparently some feelers think they don't think and strictly feel and get mad when you point out to them that hey you do in fact think and may in fact be very smart, maybe or probably even smarter than me as a T dom.

    Mlittrell you ARE a smart ENFP who is a good thinker. You also have good "emotional" intelligence but you also think.

    *ends elitist thinking rant*
    My cold, snide, intellectual life is just a veneer, behind which lies the plywood of loneliness.

  9. #629
    / nonsequitur's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Enneagram
    512 sp/so
    Posts
    1,819

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mlittrell View Post
    BEST DEBATE EVAR!

    *sarcasm*
    I know, right? I was actually going to reply to that, but decided not to. It's just not worth it, I'm not being engaged at all and Aimahn is just raging about how I don't "understand" his/her pov without explaining exactly how, and why. I re-read my responses and I think they were perfectly reasonable.

    *shrugs* I am however a little bit proud about how I managed to make someone so angry without even trying. Maybe if I not-think hard enough, I'll be able to make someone else's head explode from rage.

    Also, I guess my point of coherence and reasonability not being dependent on Ti has been proven. As I said, it's obviously an Ni thing.

  10. #630
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    MBTI
    ENFP
    Enneagram
    9w1 sx/so
    Posts
    18,086

    Default

    so... forgive my cluelessness...but...is the point just that a person with dominant f...has the feeling and then intellectualizes it...when the person with dominate t has the thought and then has an emotional reaction to it?

Similar Threads

  1. "It's only people's games you got to dodge" -Dylan
    By rfossr in forum General Psychology
    Replies: 14
    Last Post: 11-28-2014, 02:09 PM
  2. A re-introduction even though it is said you only get one.
    By Serendipity in forum Welcomes and Introductions
    Replies: 16
    Last Post: 05-18-2014, 08:51 PM
  3. If you don't get, then you don't get it
    By proteanmix in forum Philosophy and Spirituality
    Replies: 14
    Last Post: 03-03-2009, 11:21 PM
  4. Organization, how do you get it done? (Ps welcome)
    By raz in forum Academics and Careers
    Replies: 42
    Last Post: 02-02-2009, 02:46 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO