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  1. #551
    Senior Member Simplexity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nonsequitur View Post
    That's the perspective of a Ti-dominant person. You are, naturally, thinking in absolutes (yay, Ti). Judging the pyramid guy to be shifty does not preclude also having:
    1) Heard about such schemes on the news and remembering it (Si)
    2) Being naturally sceptical that money could fall into your lap so easily because there's no such thing as a free lunch and someone else is paying for it (Ni/Te)
    Just because you're Fi-dominant does not mean that you don't use the other functions at all... But Fi-dominance does give the above "positive" abilities.

    You're talking about Fi being dominant to the point of people being completely STUPID. That's like talking about Ti being dominant to the point of people being completely sociopathic, which is an example that I brought up earlier. Because Ti dominates here, you're thinking that the highest-functioning Fi-dominant person will still be less critical than a Ti-dominant person (as Fi comes more naturally).

    I'll be the first to tell you that my Ti is a whole lot stronger than most INTPs' - it's the main reason why I initially thought that I was an INTP. But I'm not. And there are INFJs and INFPs at work whose Ti reasoning blow other Ti-dominants on the INTPc board out of the water. I will also tell you that they don't consciously "work" on it... They just "flip" in and out of modes, depending on what the situation requires. We're talking about completely different scales here.

    I think Ti would be a necessary skill in academia, but I can't see it mattering very much outside of that field. Most of the Fi/Fe dominants I know IRL not only survive - they thrive in whatever they choose to do.

    I don't know why I'm arguing the benefits of Fi/Fe. Maybe it's just that so far most of the discussion has been centered on how Fi users NEED "logic". Fuck that, I say. It's elitist and xNTP-centric crap.
    Holy shit there goes your F completely disregarding what I said. You in fact even proved my point in your post! you have strong thinking skills that allowed you to excel in school. When you read or write is it not necessary to do it in the most coherent way possible? do you not do that through thinking? while obviously being dominant F or T you fine tune on different aspects while doing so, you still largely do these things as a result of thinking. I'm not trying to state that since I'm a dominant T user that I'm smarter, quite the contrary. I'm saying that it is necessary to take in to account the actual words the other person is saying and you do that through thinking, at least the base core of their logic.

    When I am engaging my thinking I obviously take in to account my Fe, right now I'm a little perturbed that you mentioned me being an "elitist" and it is evident in my post. Bluewing's emotional state is very evident in a lot of his posts despite his obvious Ti skills because we engage BOTH my point was that whatever we do as humans utilizes both, but the core of what we do at advanced levels requires competence in thinking, so Feelers are actually at a heads up in that department because they are FORCED to utilize it through education and speaking, arguing, reasoning and so on. Dominant thinkers are not necessarily forced to build up their weaker Feeling through socializing. They can and a lot of times do avoid trying then end up being socially inept yet they still can succeed in life, try avoiding thinking at its most basic level and see where that gets you.

    Disclaimer: just in case you're F is still on fire. Do you not agree that some dominant T users are completely inept in using their F function, can they still succeed and be successful? YES. is it optimal no but highly plausible.

    Do you know of any dominant F's that are completely inept with T skills? are they still very successful? probably not.

    And I'm talking to the point of not recognizing and avoiding using thinking, and when using it still inept. I'm sure everyone knows a couple of T's that are like this with feeling but I doubt you would find many F's like this who aren't retarded. Iq tests measure your Ti and Te skills to a large degree if you are competent in that then you are competent in thinking, if you are not you will most likely not have a high chance of succeeding in life. As you know all types can excel in IQ tests which measures your THINKING not your feeling in MBTI sense but THINKING and once again I reiterate you have to be COMPETENT not excellent, remarkable, great, not even good just COMPETENT.
    My cold, snide, intellectual life is just a veneer, behind which lies the plywood of loneliness.

  2. #552
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimahn View Post
    Do Fi users have access to a greater variety of emotions before structure is imposed on them and are they sometimes more abstracted than those of NT's.

    Yes, as inevitably their cognitive faculties are focused intensely on their emotional experiences. Even though the cognitive faculties of NTs operate more frequently and more efficiently, they are not nearly as focused on the passions as the faculties of NFs.

    Hence, attunement with emotions is the deciding factor in this case because on the one hand we have a person who is closely attuned with emotions, and the other one that is almost not at all.

    Thus a dom F will have greater intellectual access to emotions than a dom T.

    However, a dom F who is Intuitive will experience emotion to a greater degree than a dom F who is a Sensor. This is the case because his attunement with the intellect allows reflection on emotions possible, therefore it is possible for him to experience emotion more. (Consider the following examples. If I am under anesthesia and I am pinched, I do not have an intellectual awareness of my pain, in other words, my brain never gets the ouch signal. In order for me to feel pain, the pain must be registered in my mind. This is what led many to conclude that animals and retards cannot feel pain. The ability of animals to feel pain evinces that they are attuned with the intellect to a degree.)

    The same goes for the relationship between imagination and the passions. An F person who does have an imagination is in tune with the intellect more than the person who suffers from a vice concerning lacking imagination. Because he is able to understand his visions to some degree, he is able to have an emotional reaction to them.

    Thus, we here establish that an INFP will have an emotionally richer life than an ISFP, an ENFJ than an ESFJ. However, in the case of the comparison of an ENFP and the INFJ is where we start to have a problem coming up with a clear-cut answer.

    Clearly the INFJ and the ENFP have greater access to the intellect, but the intellect also contrasts with our passions, therefore supresses them to a certain degree.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

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  3. #553
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    Does a Ti dom necessarily think more than me, or better than me because they are a Ti dom?

    Eh... Probably not.

    Everyday I think, I can't imagine an existence divorced from thinking just as much as I can't imagine an existence divorced from feeling.

    We are trained to think yet we are not trained to feel, so Aimahn, you are right, Ti doms may in fact be at a disadvantage, because they live in a society that doesn't cater to their emotional deficits.
    `
    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

    Veritatem dies aperit

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  4. #554
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    Thus, we here establish that an INFP will have an emotionally richer life than an ISFP, an ENFJ than an ESFJ. However, in the case of the comparison of an ENFP and the INFJ is where we start to have a problem coming up with a clear-cut answer.

    Clearly the INFJ and the ENFP have greater access to the intellect, but the intellect also contrasts with our passions, therefore supresses them to a certain degree.
    WHERE ARE YOU GETTING THIS INFORMATION FROM?!?!?

    `
    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

    Veritatem dies aperit

    Ride si sapis

    Intelligentle sparkles

  5. #555
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainChick View Post
    IYou cannot use the root word of the word you are defining in the definition.?:
    Yes, you can. Some things are true by definition. In the Critique of Pure reason they are called 'the analytic truths'.

    All systems of reasoning are founded on axioms. Or the starting point of the argument. Thus, when you allude to the root of the term, you simply clarify or point out the essence of the term.

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainChick View Post
    Cognition is a product of and affected by experience, no?:
    I do not see the relevance. The inextricability of one from the other is irrelevant to their antithesis. In the case of inextricability and an antithesis both competing faculties will be present, however, one will be more pronounced than the other. That is exactly the case with cognition and experience.


    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainChick View Post
    Do you know that people actually think better when they are emotionally aroused/alert??:
    Of course some degree of emotional arousal is necessary to think, you simply cannot do anything if you have no emotional arousal, you'd be listless. However, at a certain point the emotional arousal becomes counter productive. Only a very small degree of emotional arousal is necessary, the degree that renders thinking possible. (Which again is very low)

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainChick View Post
    For me, at least, I do my best thinking when I am impassioned by some sort of stimulus or stimuli, as in, emotional excitation renders clearer and better thought.??:
    Sure thing, lets invite a rock concert to all your finals!

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainChick View Post
    When I am in flow, I am fully engaged in whatever it is I am doing, whether that be writing, drawing or conversing..??:
    It is possible to do some very basic thinking in a state of high emotional arousal, as your cognitive faculties will never be expunged completely. Not a chance you will do your best profound thinking in a state of high arousal. I never heard of anyone going to the rock concert to write a book. And I never heard of a theoretical mathematics convention in a rowdy environment.

    After all, what environments do we find deepest thinking? Obviously congregations of mathematics, philosophers and physicists. None of them ever came up with their deepest thoughts in a highly boisterous environment. And after all, all that talk about how philosophers, writers and scientists have often gone into seclusion to focu son their work must all be bunk!



    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainChick View Post
    Thinking and feeling are *not* antithetical to each other, no way, no how...??:

    Ya, sure thing. Lets do a little experiment in psychology shall we? We are going to have a 200 lb, 6,5 man with an axe chase you (without warning, you will be convinced he is trying to kill you), and we will tell you that your mother and sister were already killed by this man (there will be blood smeared over his weapon), you will be running for your life for 20 minutes. In those 20 minutes, we will expect you produce your deepest thoughts on this one post!





    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainChick View Post
    But intuition itself is highly emotionally or even viscerally charged where something suddenly becomes apparent to you though you do not understand *explicitly* why or how....??:
    Yes, sometimes value judgments interplay with Intuition. But this has nothing to do with Intuition as a thing in itself.


    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainChick View Post
    Um, what does that have ANYTHING at all to do with what I had asked you?....??:
    This was the whole point! Experience and cognition are antithetical! Therefore Thinking and Intuition are antithetical with Feeling and Sensation.

    What is the bottom line? You are quite correct that some degree of emotional arousal is necessary to inspire thinking. All activities require energy which we can access only in the form of emotional arousal. However, Thinking is not an emotionally demanding activity, therefore it requires a low emotional arousal. A high emotional arousal is not conducive to contemplation. (see the psychological experiment above)

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainChick View Post
    :confused:
    No kidding...

    By the way, is there anybody else on the board who would like to tell me that they do their best work when they are emotionally excited? Anybody here who would like to sit down to writing a doctoral dissertation at a rock concert?
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

  6. #556
    Senior Member Chris_in_Orbit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainChick View Post
    WHERE ARE YOU GETTING THIS INFORMATION FROM?!?!?

    He had a friend whose uncle knew an INFP once.

  7. #557
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    `
    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

    Veritatem dies aperit

    Ride si sapis

    Intelligentle sparkles

  8. #558
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainChick View Post
    WHERE ARE YOU GETTING THIS INFORMATION FROM?!?!?

    Did you read the post, I already explained it in tedious detail!
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

  9. #559
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FineLine View Post
    Damn, I'm already way behind.

    Anyway, as I said in my most recent posts, my own experience of Fi is that I have a steady-state model in my head--one that's been thought through and deliberated upon. I don't need to consult it all the time, and therefore much of the day I can react to events and interact with people without digging deep. But then at times something jars emotionally and then I go down to the deeper level where things have been thought through and stored.

    So I don't really see any difference between what you're saying about INTPs and what I'm experiencing as an INFP. Both Fi and Ti are judging functions. They're both structured and organized (and structuring and organizing).
    Do you think that this could be attributed to your age? The fact that you had time to develop your Thinking and for this reason your Thinking is organized.

    Thinking is an organized function because it is in tune with logical reasoning.

    Now, why is Feeling an organized function?
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

  10. #560
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainChick View Post
    Does a Ti dom necessarily think more than me, or better than me because they are a Ti dom?

    Eh... Probably not.

    Everyday I think, I can't imagine an existence divorced from thinking just as much as I can't imagine an existence divorced from feeling.

    We are trained to think yet we are not trained to feel, so Aimahn, you are right, Ti doms may in fact be at a disadvantage, because they live in a society that doesn't cater to their emotional deficits.
    ???????????????/

    All I can say...Where is the foundation to any of this?

    By the way, you were right that the INFP would have a richer emotional life than an ENFP. Attunement with the intellect is necessary in order to have an emotional life. The difference between the attunement with the intellect of the INFP and the ENFP is insignificant comparing to the difference between that of the INFP and an ISFP.

    In the case of the ENFP, the attunement with the intellect (Ne-Te) will become supressive of the passions. Yet the INFP on the other hand has just enough attunement with the intellect to have a rich emotional life without allowing the intellect to become a hindrance to the experiencing of the emotional life.

    The SFs are hindered from experiencing emotion to a degree due to their lack of sufficient attunement with the intellect. For this reason many observe that NFs have deeper sentiments and are more sensitive to others than SFs, and the fact that NFs have deeper insights into people (which they claim derived from their feelings!) supports this point.



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    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

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