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  1. #541
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    Quote Originally Posted by toonia View Post
    I was raised by a family that I *think* are all Fi dominant (some are for certain), and I test rather high on that function (likely as a result). Certain differences come out during conflict. Fi is empathetic, but from a specific vantage point. It seems to have a somewhat constructed concept of the subjective world with strong opinions about it. It has arrived at certain conclusions that fit its model. The empathy is quite strong for those things that fit into its model, but for those things that fall outside, there can be breaks in the empathy. I think the difficulty in describing Fi results from the way a subjective model of the world is constructed based on so much nuance and those things which defy measurement. Fi can produce some of the gentlest, kindest people, but these are sometimes people for whom admitting a flaw or some way in which they have not measured up to their ideal is especially traumatic. When something conflicts with that model of the world it is sometimes emotionally necessary for Fi to lash out.

    edit: Maybe I should ask: I understand that F and T dominants are considered the "rationalists" with constructed inner world views while N and S are the irrationalists with a less structured inner world. Is this correct? if not then my Fi bit would apply more to Ni I think. I'm actually a little confused on the subject not being certain if I am Fi or Ni dominant myself, but noting a difference in the way myself and some of the people close to me structure their inner worlds.

    Great points.

    Yes, F and T are both "J" functions--they construct a structured, organized model that is used to judge themselves and the world around them.

    Because the model is structured and fairly rigorous, there occur anomalies like you mentioned. The model is rather inflexible, so it misses some things (for example I'm usually polite but rarely courteous) and gets injured or stressed by others. When others violate the principles of the model, I may lash out or I may simply dismiss the other--I may decide that the other person is no longer part of my world.

    Like you said, it's traumatic when I myself can't live up to the model. So over time I've built a lot of cynicism and selfishness into the model just to keep it workable and applicable to the real world and my own capabilities. Otherwise the model can turn into a straitjacket and make action or interaction impossible, leading to a lot of frustration and anger.

  2. #542
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimahn View Post
    His point is Feelings are more experiential so in order for you to gain insight based on them you have to detach to a certain extent and impose structure and order to get something useful out of them. Like a journal. When you initially right in it it is just stream of conscious and does not immediately make sense until you step back, see what you wrote, analyze it, and impose a certain amount of structure on it so that you can use that information in a valuable sense in the future.
    I believe that Fi is all about intro and intraspecting, or being emotionally intelligent, if you will.

    Fi is about thinking about feelings, understanding and dealing with them, at least, I think.
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  3. #543
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    Yup.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimahn View Post
    It's interesting and amusing seeing how passionate some people with Fi can be. It seems like it would be to draining to maintain that, does it fluctuate a lot or is it pretty steady. Do you constantly sort of adjust your internal emotional state according to whats going on externally or is it more calm and controlled internally until something notable occurs externally.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimahn View Post
    Do certain seemingly simple things sometimes elicit really complex and deep emotions in you. Like maybe seeing animals or just something that reminds you of something that was emotionally significant. Like when you meet new people and you see there little mannerism's, actions, words do they elicit deeper and more intricate things in you that aren't immediately observable to others.
    I notice two layers in myself: an external layer that emotes quite quickly and easily and even gets a bit out of control at times, and a steady-state lower layer that's much more calm. Many times the lower layer is watching and even laughing or sneering at the reactions of the external layer.

    The external layer lives in the moment and is infused with a lot of Ne; the lower layer seems to be the structured "model" at the core of Fi and I identify more with it than the external layer.

    The lower layer (the "model") is not often moved these days. It's moved by critical challenges to my existing values, or sometimes by deep personal associations brought up by some small event in the outer world--perhaps like you described in your last paragraph.

  5. #545
    Senior Member Simplexity's Avatar
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    I think bluewings main point, obviously he will get his word in about the matter, is that in order to bring more structure and plausible courses of actions based on those introspected feelings you have to engage thinking. For example lets say you feel someone "acts" nice yet they constantly do things that are detrimental to you, you would need to detach and not engage feeling to decide a course of action. You wouldn't continue to go on the misleading vibes you get, or at least I hope not.
    My cold, snide, intellectual life is just a veneer, behind which lies the plywood of loneliness.

  6. #546
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    OK, from the Ni/Te perspective:

    Situation: A salesman comes to the door, selling some pyramid scheme to people. He's very enthusiastic, dresses well, is impressive.

    Fi-user: Doesn't buy the scheme because she/he sees that person react in a number of different ways, e.g. shifty eyes, keeps glancing at his watch, insincerity, etc. Fi user doesn't classify these observations, simply gets the impression on the gut level that this guy is a wanker and should not be trusted. Fi user relies on this "reasonable" judgment to make the decision to flip the guy off, but cannot explain "why" because they simply do not classify their observations in a manner that the Ti will understand.

    Ti-user: Dissects the pyramid scheme, points out logical inconsistencies, finds the guy a sham and flips him off. Also a reasonable response. Could conceivably explain the reasons why this scheme would not work to an Fi-user, but the Fi-user has already moved beyond that initial judgment of "shifty guy" into "I don't care, I've already made the decision".

    That is part of the reason why I personally think that BlueWing's descriptions are so waaaaaaaaaaay off. He has no personal experience of Fi, as can be seen from his descriptions of it in a reductionistic Ti manner. Also, I find in no way that Fi users are less prepared for the world because they're unable to be reductionistic ("using critical thinking"). If anything, they read people well because of their ability to read cues that may not be verbal.

    Situation 2: Person sitting at the desk, their grandmother just passed away.

    Fi-user: Something has just happened to that person, I can't really explain why... must be empathy. Actual way it "works": Fi-user observes slightly slumped shoulders, tense jaw, an unusual focus and frown. Fi-user concludes that something bad must've happened.

    Ti-user: Person did not come into work, and boss explained that a personal matter has come up. Must be something bad.

    Situation 2 basically describes my experience. I wasn't "freaked out" by my ENFP friend's "intuition" or "empathy" because I knew that she reads people well, and I don't have the best control over myself when something bad happens.

    Same conclusions, different ways of arriving there.

  7. #547
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    Ti people do things that appear stupid to others, but not due to a failure of rationality.

    For instance you mention a single INTP may reject a woman because he is afraid of failure.

    You also explain in detail how INTPs want to live a life that is consistent with the model of how they should live that they have in their head.

    That is true. In other words, they have a model regarding how they should live their life which is very rigorously outlined often, and they do not wish to stray from that model.

    I would imagine INTPs in the situation you describe are more recline to be taciturn not because of a fear of failure, but simply because they are afraid of stepping outside of the boundaries of their model. In many cases, all that this model includes is a requirement that all actions must be thought through as carefully and rigorously as possible.

    Relationships are often fuzzy, and because they are difficult to think through carefully and rigorously, the INTP will be tempted to avoid such activities. As you mention, they avoid activities that are not consistent with their internal model concerning how they should live their lives.

    It is true that such INTPs may benefit by stepping out of their model and allowing themselves to take actions that are not carefully and rigorously thought through, as for example, jumping into a relationship that does not make much sense on the outset.

    However, I would argue (and would like to in tedious detail) why the long term benefits of a carefully though through choice outweigh the occassional drawbacks of such choices.

    Hence, I agree with your descriptions of INTP behavior, however, I disagree that it is a mistake on their part to refuse to step outside of their model or in other words, make decisions that are not carefully thought through.

    A more plausible alternative that I see is engaging in relationships where the situation is more clear.

    This is easily attained in an INTP-INTP relationship, and could be attained if the INTP manages to pursuade his/her non-INTP partner to provide clarity for the current situation.

    Thus, my thesis is, it is never desirable to act without having thought things through.

    By no means, do not feel obligated to drop the subject, I am quite interested in your thoughts on this matter.
    Damn, I'm already way behind.

    Anyway, as I said in my most recent posts, my own experience of Fi is that I have a steady-state model in my head--one that's been thought through and deliberated upon. I don't need to consult it all the time, and therefore much of the day I can react to events and interact with people without digging deep. But then at times something jars emotionally and then I go down to the deeper level where things have been thought through and stored.

    So I don't really see any difference between what you're saying about INTPs and what I'm experiencing as an INFP. Both Fi and Ti are judging functions. They're both structured and organized (and structuring and organizing).

  8. #548
    Senior Member Simplexity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nonsequitur View Post
    OK, from the Ni/Te perspective:

    Situation: A salesman comes to the door, selling some pyramid scheme to people. He's very enthusiastic, dresses well, is impressive.

    Fi-user: Doesn't buy the scheme because she/he sees that person react in a number of different ways, e.g. shifty eyes, keeps glancing at his watch, insincerity, etc. Fi user doesn't classify these observations, simply gets the impression on the gut level that this guy is a wanker and should not be trusted. Fi user relies on this "reasonable" judgment to make the decision to flip the guy off, but cannot explain "why" because they simply do not classify their observations in a manner that the Ti will understand.

    Ti-user: Dissects the pyramid scheme, points out logical inconsistencies, finds the guy a sham and flips him off. Also a reasonable response. Could conceivably explain the reasons why this scheme would not work to an Fi-user, but the Fi-user has already moved beyond that initial judgment of "shifty guy" into "I don't care, I've already made the decision".

    That is part of the reason why I personally think that BlueWing's descriptions are so waaaaaaaaaaay off. He has no personal experience of Fi, as can be seen from his descriptions of it in a reductionistic Ti manner. Also, I find in no way that Fi users are less prepared for the world because they're unable to be reductionistic ("using critical thinking"). If anything, they read people well because of their ability to read cues that may not be verbal.

    Situation 2: Person sitting at the desk, their grandmother just passed away.

    Fi-user: Something has just happened to that person, I can't really explain why... must be empathy. Actual way it "works": Fi-user observes slightly slumped shoulders, tense jaw, an unusual focus and frown. Fi-user concludes that something bad must've happened.

    Ti-user: Person did not come into work, and boss explained that a personal matter has come up. Must be something bad.

    Situation 2 basically describes my experience. I wasn't "freaked out" by my ENFP friend's "intuition" or "empathy" because I knew that she reads people well, and I don't have the best control over myself when something bad happens.

    Same conclusions, different ways of arriving there.
    I think that emotions are a much more fickle thing to go on. In order to have more practical use for them it is necessary to engage thinking to bring more usable sense to them. Would you not engage some thinking on the pyramid scheme or would you trust your judgment on feeling SO much that you would completely disregard whatever the hell the guy is saying. Ti types can can get away with being socially inept and having little ability to use Fe because at the end of the day thinking and interpreting verbal cues is necessary in order to be competent at life.

    Fi types cannot simply disregard thinking to the extent that Ti types can disregard feeling because at the end of the day having some rigor and structure in interpreting logic is fundamental to any advanced things we do. Try and get through school without moderate competence in thinking, you cant. Everybody has both society forces you to be competent in thinking, it is greatly beneficial to be adept at feeling in the MBTI sense but not necessary. You can be as emotionally convincing or unconvincing as you want at the end of the day you need some competence in thinking for people to trust you, if not then you are setting yourself up for massive failure.

    That is not to devalue feeling at all because we're humans we both think and feel, but in order to succeed in life we need a moderate ability to think and bring structure to BOTH our thoughts and feelings, feelings themselves are more of an imprint or cue of the situation. To understand and utilize this in differing situations we need a level of thought to detach somewhat and bring some "logical" order to them.
    My cold, snide, intellectual life is just a veneer, behind which lies the plywood of loneliness.

  9. #549
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimahn View Post
    I think that emotions are a much more fickle thing to go on. In order to have more practical use for them it is necessary to engage thinking to bring more usable sense to them. Would you not engage some thinking on the pyramid scheme or would you trust your judgment on feeling SO much that you would completely disregard whatever the hell the guy is saying. Ti types can can get away with being socially inept and having little ability to use Fe because at the end of the day thinking and interpreting verbal cues is necessary in order to be competent at life.

    Fi types cannot simply disregard thinking to the extent that Ti types can disregard feeling because at the end of the day having some rigor and structure in interpreting logic is fundamental to any advanced things we do. Try and get through skill without moderate competence in thinking, you cant. Everybody has both society forces you to be competent in thinking, it is greatly beneficial to be adept at feeling in the MBTI sense but not necessary. You can be as emotionally convincing or unconvincing as you want at the end of the day you need some competence in thinking for people to trust you, if not then you are setting yourself up for massive failure.
    That's the perspective of a Ti-dominant person. You are, naturally, thinking in absolutes (yay, Ti). Judging the pyramid guy to be shifty does not preclude also having:
    1) Heard about such schemes on the news and remembering it (Si)
    2) Being naturally sceptical that money could fall into your lap so easily because there's no such thing as a free lunch and someone else is paying for it (Ni/Te)
    Just because you're Fi-dominant does not mean that you don't use the other functions at all... But Fi-dominance does give the above "positive" abilities.

    You're talking about Fi being dominant to the point of people being completely STUPID. That's like talking about Ti being dominant to the point of people being completely sociopathic, which is an example that I brought up earlier. Because Ti dominates here, you're thinking that the highest-functioning Fi-dominant person will still be less critical than a Ti-dominant person (as Fi comes more naturally).

    I'll be the first to tell you that my Ti is a whole lot stronger than most INTPs' - it's the main reason why I initially thought that I was an INTP. But I'm not. And there are INFJs and INFPs at work whose Ti reasoning blow other Ti-dominants on the INTPc board out of the water. I will also tell you that they don't consciously "work" on it... They just "flip" in and out of modes, depending on what the situation requires. We're talking about completely different scales here.

    I think Ti would be a necessary skill in academia, but I can't see it mattering very much outside of that field. Most of the Fi/Fe dominants I know IRL not only survive - they thrive in whatever they choose to do.

    I don't know why I'm arguing the benefits of Fi/Fe. Maybe it's just that so far most of the discussion has been centered on how Fi users NEED "logic". Fuck that, I say. It's elitist and xNTP-centric crap.

  10. #550
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    Quote Originally Posted by FineLine View Post
    But then at times something jars emotionally and then I go down to the deeper level where things have been thought through and stored.
    Simple example. (And by that I mean really dumbed-down, just for purposes of elucidation.)

    I'm watching some made-for-television movie, not particularly good or bad--just whiling away the time. Suddenly it takes a tear-jerker turn right at the very end, and all of a sudden I notice that I'm sniffling and getting teary-eyed.

    That seems all wrong to me. I rarely get teary-eyed about anything. So I quickly review the storyline in my head and compare it to the model inside me for things emotionally powerful enough to cause me sadness. Nope, there's nothing properly emotionally powerful in the movie. Conclusion: I'm getting emotionally manipulated.

    Reaction: I get pissed off, even full of rage. How dare they emotionally manipulate me. I invested two hours in this piece of crap movie, and they ripped me off just to go for the big ending. If someone were to enter the room right now, I would probably launch into a rant about all the flaws in the movie and the lack of artistic integrity in going for the tearjerker ending.

    But by the time I've gotten myself properly worked up and pissed off, the tears and sniffling are gone and I touch base again with the internal model to see if I should be getting this angry about a TV movie. Conclusion: No. And in fact, I've been kind of laughing inwardly at these quick emotive change-ups. The whole emotional parade seems comic. Suddenly I'm in a good mood again. I dismiss the whole thing. I forget about the movie, figure I might as well redeem the waste of time by doing something productive, and go off and wash the dishes. Or maybe I stick around and watch the end of the movie and laugh at the depths of emotive rubbish the movie plumbs.

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