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  1. #531
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    I can and do have feelings about experiences, what say you then?

    I can feel immensely about things that have occurred literally years ago.
    `
    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

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  2. #532
    Senior Member Simplexity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    We know that every sensation is intimately intertwined with a sentiment. For instance, every physical sensation you may experience obviously evokes a Feeling.

    To the same degree, Feelings are intertwined with our imagination or Intuition. Though to a much lesser degree.

    Consider the following, when you pinch yourself, your brain unconsciously recollects the signal which represents pain. This is basically Thinking working for you at a lightning speed on an unconscious level. It is Thinking because in this case you get an idea of what an occurence was.

    Sensations are the easiest of all occurences to interpret.

    Intuitions, on the other hand, abstract visions are more difficult to interpret, as they are by definition more complex. They require a higher level of the functioning of the Thinking faculty in order for them to be understood, therefore the emotional reaction to N oriented entities is lower than to S oriented entities.

    Feeling and Intuition contrapose each other because Feeling insists on a purely impulse oriented activity such as mere experience of the passions. Intuition on the other hand is a cognitive experience, it insists on detaching from the immediate experience in order to rely on the intellect.

    In condensed form, one insists on a mere experience, yet the other insists on stepping back to think about the experience. Thus, Feeling stultifies Intuition.

    In applied typology this manifests in Feelers being less open to ideas than Thinkers. Consider the following, a mature Thinking type, under almost all circumstances will be willing to dispassionate analyze any idea you throw at him. This is why many observers of INTPs often claim that you can talk with these people about almost anything.

    Yet, Feelers often have 'sacred values', or values that are never to be questioned. For instance, you are much more likely to hear a Feeler say 'EWWW this is gross..dont tell me any more about this!' than a Thinker. A Thinker's natural reaction is to analyze whatever he is subjected to which supports Intuition, as both are cognitive processes, not experiential.



    Because Feeling is an experiential process and Thinking is cognitive, they are antithetical to each other.

    On the level of common-sense, I do not see any reason whatever to believe that merely indulging in sentiments somehow conduces to cultivation of critical thinking skills.

    A more plausible explanation that I see for the behavior of your ex who has conjured many intricate emotional reactions to external stimuli is simply that they are a product of Intuition and Thinking.

    I guarantee that the emotional reactions of ENFPs and INFJs will be much more complex than that of the ENFJs and INFPs because of a higher involvement of Intuition and Thinking.

    I simply see no room for complexity in Feeling as a thing in itself.
    I think that this is getting in to the grounds of bringing order and predictability. That is to say is it necessary to have a degree of thinking skills to have a number of fleeting emotions. I sometimes have a number of wild and off the wall ideas when I'm brain storming because I'm focused on intuiting more, obviously there is some order involved in all those thoughts due to Ti but it does not stop me from experiencing them.

    The reason I'm very curious about this certain issue is because it seems like most of my emotions are pretty organized and basic. When I see someone being tortured the emotions that are conjured up are based on the pain of the certain body part or area being tortured, the sounds, maybe the idea of being held captive, the environmental conditions of the area and so on. Would it not be plausible to assume in a dominant Fi type with intuition there are a wider variety of emotions being elicited some of which are not immediately apparent, whether or not a structure is there enough for plausible actions to be taken seems somewhat irrelevant. At least to the extent that they feel those fleeting emotions. I agree that it is necessary to abstract and detach to bring order and predictability to these feelings and that engages thinking, but would Fi users not have a greater palette to select from?
    My cold, snide, intellectual life is just a veneer, behind which lies the plywood of loneliness.

  3. #533
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainChick View Post
    What is intuition if not a feeling about the way something is without, or prior to, actually logically/linearly knowing why it is that way?
    Pure Intuition is irrelevant to an emotive valuation. It is a mere abstract perception. For example a vision of a castle. It has no Judgment. In itself it is empty and directionless. Inevitably Thinking decides what the vision is going to be about.

    There can be no doubt that a vision inevitably evokes an emotional reaction or a Feeling, as you suggest, however, in order for the vision to be incepted in the first place (or be made accessible to our minds) Thinking is necessary.

    For this reason, the distance between Feeling and Intuition is greater than the distance between Thinking and Intuition.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

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  4. #534
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimahn View Post
    I think that this is getting in to the grounds of bringing order and predictability. That is to say is it necessary to have a degree of thinking skills to have a number of fleeting emotions. I sometimes have a number of wild and off the wall ideas when I'm brain storming because I'm focused on intuiting more, obviously there is some order involved in all those thoughts due to Ti but it does not stop me from experiencing them.

    The reason I'm very curious about this certain issue is because it seems like most of my emotions are pretty organized and basic. When I see someone being tortured the emotions that are conjured up are based on the pain of the certain body part or area being tortured, the sounds, maybe the idea of being held captive, the environmental conditions of the area and so on. Would it not be plausible to assume in a dominant Fi type with intuition there are a wider variety of emotions being elicited some of which are not immediately apparent, whether or not a structure is there enough for plausible actions to be taken seems somewhat irrelevant. At least to the extent that they feel those fleeting emotions. I agree that it is necessary to abstract and detach to bring order and predictability to these feelings and that engages thinking, but would Fi users not have a greater palette to select from?
    In one sentence, tell me what your question is.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

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  5. #535
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainChick View Post
    I can and do have feelings about experiences, what say you then?

    I can feel immensely about things that have occurred literally years ago.
    I say so what? I do not see a contradiction between what you said and what I said.

    My point is you cannot think about the experience without detaching from it.

    But when it has been years after the experience took place, you definitely have had time to detach from the immediate experience and think about it.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

  6. #536
    Senior Member Simplexity's Avatar
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    Do Fi users have access to a greater variety of emotions before structure is imposed on them and are they sometimes more abstracted than those of NT's.
    My cold, snide, intellectual life is just a veneer, behind which lies the plywood of loneliness.

  7. #537
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    `
    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

    Veritatem dies aperit

    Ride si sapis

    Intelligentle sparkles

  8. #538
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    Senator Wing, do you think you just might be a teensy-weensy bit biased in your opinions?

    Just a bit?
    `
    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

    Veritatem dies aperit

    Ride si sapis

    Intelligentle sparkles

  9. #539
    Senior Member Simplexity's Avatar
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    His point is Feelings are more experiential so in order for you to gain insight based on them you have to detach to a certain extent and impose structure and order to get something useful out of them. Like a journal. When you initially right in it it is just stream of conscious and does not immediately make sense until you step back, see what you wrote, analyze it, and impose a certain amount of structure on it so that you can use that information in a valuable sense in the future.
    My cold, snide, intellectual life is just a veneer, behind which lies the plywood of loneliness.

  10. #540
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    Experiential: Pertaining strictly to the ongoing experience. For example, the activity of running is purely experiential.

    Cogntive: Thinking about running is cognitive.
    I am thoroughly unsatisfied with your definitions of these terms.

    You cannot use the root word of the word you are defining in the definition.

    Cognition is a product of and affected by experience, no?

    Hence, here we have a contrast between simply having the experience, and having an idea of the experience, or any idea at all.

    Thinking and Feeling are antithetical to each other for two reasons.

    1)The former insists on a dispassionate state of mind and the latter on an impassioned.

    2)Thinking insists on a cognitive process, as it is concerned with analysis of a problem, yet Feeling is concerned with the direct emotional experience.
    Do you know that people actually think better when they are emotionally aroused/alert?

    For me, at least, I do my best thinking when I am impassioned by some sort of stimulus or stimuli, as in, emotional excitation renders clearer and better thought.

    When I am in flow, I am fully engaged in whatever it is I am doing, whether that be writing, drawing or conversing.

    Thinking and feeling are *not* antithetical to each other, no way, no how.


    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    Pure Intuition is irrelevant to an emotive valuation. It is a mere abstract perception. For example a vision of a castle. It has no Judgment. In itself it is empty and directionless. Inevitably Thinking decides what the vision is going to be about.

    There can be no doubt that a vision inevitably evokes an emotional reaction or a Feeling, as you suggest, however, in order for the vision to be incepted in the first place (or be made accessible to our minds) Thinking is necessary.

    For this reason, the distance between Feeling and Intuition is greater than the distance between Thinking and Intuition.
    Thinking, I admit comes directly *after* the intuiting where your mind seeks to fill out all the steps you had previously skipped.

    But intuition itself is highly emotionally or even viscerally charged where something suddenly becomes apparent to you though you do not understand *explicitly* why or how.

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    My point is you cannot think about the experience without detaching from it.

    But when it has been years after the experience took place, you definitely have had time to detach from the immediate experience and think about it.
    Um, what does that have ANYTHING at all to do with what I had asked you?

    :confused:
    `
    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

    Veritatem dies aperit

    Ride si sapis

    Intelligentle sparkles

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