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  1. #401
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harmonic View Post
    Please forgive me for not reading the +10 pages before this post, I apologize if this post is a re-tread on topic already touched upon.

    Yes, you're right here. I used Thinking as a tool to explain Introverted Feeling, but the process described is still undoubtedly Introverted Feeling.

    Okay, this argument finally makes sense now. The reason that we have a disagreement is because you think Fi is an emotion, and I think that Fi is acting upon that said emotion.

    Here's the problem though. Introverted Feeling acts upon values. These values are wrought from emotion. The reason that XXFP's are emotional in the manner you describe is because the manner in which Fi works is basically akin to emotionally blackmailing yourself (think about how I would have felt if I didn't go to my grandmother's funeral). Thus, after us XXFP's have had our hearts crushed in several times we learn that it might be better for us if we heed this emotion and as time goes on we may even trust our emotions as a compass to make decisions. Out of these emotions, we form values that we live by and the process that we use to decide if the importance of the value is greater than the importance of logic is Introverted Feeling.

    I'm also going to close with some food-for-thought in the form of an excerpt of a list from a book where Thinkers and Feelers are being explained in a form of contrasting bullet points.
    [/list]
    Emotions in themselvs do not have a clear structure, therefore it is not possible to act upon only values. When you stand by your values, you are analyzing your feelings, therefore using Feeling and Thinking. When an F does not use Thinking properly, to structure their values, they merely act on impulses.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

  2. #402
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Most people don't get that Feeling and Thinking work in tandem, somehow.

    Not to mention not knowing the definitions.

  3. #403
    Senior Member Moiety's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    Fi in itself does lack critical thinking skills, however Fi people may cultivate their critical thinking skills by developing their Thinking function. The rebellious behavior you mention in most case is a result of precisely such a development. Before having developed Thinking to a certain degree, Fi people tend to go with the flow in order to please others.

    Well I can't say I've been there. At all, actually. What I don't get is why do you associate Fi with pleasing others, when it's, from my very limited understanding (I can't claim to be a MBTI expert, but the theory must have a logic to it...), the most selfish of the functions. "My way or the high way".

  4. #404
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nocapszy View Post
    You should be embarrassed by your utter lack of cooperation with true rationality.
    You're an F anyway.
    You've demonstrated that elsewhere.

    For the last time -- and I mean it, this is the last time the forum will ever hear me say these words; from now on, everyone else is either going to have to figure it out, or have someone else tell them -- I don't have any interest in proving my points / sharing my knowledge to underlings such as yourself.

    Typically I find that most people are good sports about my evasion of explanation. Those people almost invariably receive, upon request, a fully thorough and reasonable analysis on ____. On the other hand, you, The Poriferan and Bluedogma, among others, give such a miraculously entertaining show when fuddled by me that it's just plain irresistible. I can't help myself but attempt what you so inaccurately dubbed as 'proof by assertion.'

    I assure you, as someone who has, and continues to trounce every intellectual, mechanical, or mathematical problem that ever has and ever does come my way, I can say with a great deal of security that I, by no means, apparent or otherwise, avert objectivity.
    Keeping it to myself as retaliation against non-cooperation with the initial attempts to be rational is not, (and if you're really an NT you'll be able to accept this as quickly as you read it) proof of dearth in rationality.



    In summary: I don't care that anything I say upsets you. I'm being altruistic in telling you you're wasting your time telling me.

    You are an exceptionally clear-thinker! Unfortunately I managed to discover no more than one coherent sentence in your entire post that I have cited.

    This is because, no doubt, your scrutiny of thought has gotten so profound that it has become unintelligible!

    Sincere and humble admirer,
    BW.
    Last edited by SolitaryWalker; 11-07-2008 at 08:12 AM.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

  5. #405
    / nonsequitur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    How exactly does that follow???
    Like you equate Ti with "critical reasoning skills", is Fi not equatable with "empathy"?

    I just swopped the terms. And by definition, someone without empathy is a sociopath. Bingo. Logical as you asserted!

    BlueWing, if you think most people with primary Ti have a "clear structure" through which they make their decisions, you are greatly mistaken and have no link to reality. There is no verbalised, justifiable, coherent structure to that decision-making process. Much like Fi.

    I've decided to stop following this thread because the emotionality and insensibility of it all is making my nose itch. Funnily enough, most of it is coming from XNTPs. *yawns* That said, NFs aren't much better.

    Back to bed.

  6. #406
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nocapszy View Post
    This is exactly the kind of inductive idiocy I get so pissed about. You and CC both make this mistake.

    Just because Feeling isn't rational, doesn't mean an F can't be rational. It means most of the time they're not, but still some of the time they can, and often are adroitly so, very rational.

    Wrong.
    You don't care what I have to say.
    And y'know something chotch, you're almost alone.


    Again you make the mistake of thinking I care whether you approve of me.

    Homeboy,

    Didums is not an F. (PM or IM me for further discussion on the matter, that is if you wish to see an argument in favor of that thesis in tedious detail).

    The qualities which led you to infer he may be an F are to be related to his age, which is 16.

    Give him another 5 years and he'll be worth 5 of you.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

  7. #407
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nonsequitur View Post
    Like you equate Ti with "critical reasoning skills", is Fi not equatable with "empathy"?

    I just swopped the terms. And by definition, someone without empathy is a sociopath. Bingo. Logical as you asserted!

    BlueWing, if you think most people with primary Ti have a "clear structure" through which they make their decisions, you are greatly mistaken and have no link to reality. There is no verbalised, justifiable, coherent structure to that decision-making process. Much like Fi.

    I've decided to stop following this thread because the emotionality and insensibility of it all is making my nose itch. Funnily enough, most of it is coming from XNTPs. *yawns* That said, NFs aren't much better.

    Back to bed.
    Generally people with inferior F have low empathy, though not low enough to be sociopathic. People with inferior T tend to lack comptence at reasoning skills enough to be considered irrational, but they are certainly not entirely devoid of rationality.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

  8. #408
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimahn View Post
    I'm not devaluing Fi in any way shape or form at ALL. What I was merely trying to say was since most people have encountered Ti logic it is pretty easily understood and learned. Most people however are not familiar with Fi logic so I thought it was necessary for their to be sort a bridge to help me and others understand it( a lot of other posters did a great job of that, by the way) But my original intent in bringing this up was to show that CC did in fact ask specifically for Ti logic and when some people tried to explain it in that manner she got frustrated as did others. The funny thing is most of the "insightful" posts that were referenced actually were very logically plausible unlike her own attempts.
    There is no Fi logic, Fi is merely a sentiment. The logical reasoning of Fi people is diffficult to understand because Fi people tend to struggle with logical reasoning, therefore their ideas are unclear and for this reason difficult for others to understand.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

  9. #409
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    You are absolutely correct! My view of Fi is different from theirs!

    I think that my beliefs are true because I have an argument to support them, and I do not see how it can be refuted at this point, nor has anyone showed how this can be done with competence.

    They on the other hand hae not presented an argument, only foundationless opinions.

    One may say, they are Fi doms, they must know how that function works! No, not really! In order to properly understand how one's mind works, intellectual honesty and skill at logical analysis are required, so far they have shown no evidence of neither.
    Wing, I just don't think you are being fair, here, honestly.

    No one here is trying to build a logically sound argument for, wait, what would we be arguing, anyhow?!?

    Some of us are describing how we experience Fi, that is all, and what is wrong with discussing experiential stuff and opinions rather than arguing concrete objective facts?

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    Fi in itself does lack critical thinking skills, however Fi people may cultivate their critical thinking skills by developing their Thinking function. The rebellious behavior you mention in most case is a result of precisely such a development. Before having developed Thinking to a certain degree, Fi people tend to go with the flow in order to please others.
    Hmm, I don't know if it is due to my Fi, or my being the youngest of three daughters, but I rarely sweat the small stuff, meaning, I often go with the flow when it comes to matters that I feel are of little consequence.

    I would say that over all, despite how passionate and stubborn I can at times be, I am pretty chill, when in a group of people, I will gladly follow and appease if that makes the group happier, but I must stress that I only do this with decisions that i find frivolous in nature.

    Quote Originally Posted by dissonance View Post
    Most people don't get that Feeling and Thinking work in tandem, somehow.

    Not to mention not knowing the definitions.
    My sentiments, exactly!!!



    Quote Originally Posted by nonsequitur View Post
    Like you equate Ti with "critical reasoning skills", is Fi not equatable with "empathy"?

    I just swopped the terms. And by definition, someone without empathy is a sociopath. Bingo. Logical as you asserted!

    BlueWing, if you think most people with primary Ti have a "clear structure" through which they make their decisions, you are greatly mistaken and have no link to reality. There is no verbalised, justifiable, coherent structure to that decision-making process. Much like Fi.

    I've decided to stop following this thread because the emotionality and insensibility of it all is making my nose itch. Funnily enough, most of it is coming from XNTPs. *yawns* That said, NFs aren't much better.

    Back to bed.
    This man makes interesting points, I think.

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    Homeboy,

    Didums is not an F. (PM or IM me for further discussion on the matter, that is if you wish to see an argument in favor of that thesis in tedious detail).

    The qualities which led you to infer he may be an F are to be related to his age, which is 16.

    Give him another 5 years and he'll be worth 5 of you.
    `
    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

    Veritatem dies aperit

    Ride si sapis

    Intelligentle sparkles

  10. #410
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimahn View Post
    No how about you read up on what psychology is. Matter of fact do yourself a favor and look at Blackmail!'s excellent arguments against bluewing, because clearly you don't know what the flying fuck you're talking about.
    What was such an argument?
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

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