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  1. #261
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    T's rationalize first, feel second.

    F's feel first, think rationally second.

    Simple as that.


    I must also add; T and F have nothing to do with "intelligence" as it is defined by the dictionary. T and F have their strengths in different areas, but a truly intelligent, well developed person will be adept at both. We need both to survive and adapt. So don't hold the fact that someone is T or F dominant against them.

    For Example: An NT can theorize all day long, analyze complicated systems, but if they cannot apply this to the real world or hold a decent enough conversation to make something out of himself; how intelligent is he really?

  2. #262
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    FineLine's claim merit another mention.

    He argues that a Ti person can be divorced from reality just as much as an Fi person as well as logical thinking is not enough for understanding reality. In other words, it is not enough to think rationally, one must also make accurate observations of reality.

    I argued that thinking logically is a prerequisite for making accurate observations in reality. If a person does not think rationally, he cannot accurate organize and understand his observations.

    A person who does think logically will be inspired to make accurate observations of the external world because inaccurate observations will in most case appear in his thought in a form of contradictions which he cannot tolerate.

    For this reason, it is quite rare that INTPs are divorced from reality.

    However, they do appear to be. As Fineline suggests, a Ti person who says it is fair to mistreat a family member seems to be divorced from reality. FineLine seems to argue that the person who behaves in a way that we deem ethically untenable must be divorced from reality. The latter does not follow from the former.

    A person may have a clear understanding of reality, for instance he may be a physicist, mathematician or a philosopher yet still mistreat peole simply because he is wicked. Quite simply an understanding of reality and treating others in a way that is ethically justified.

    The INTPs who behave in such a way simply do not find treating others in a respectful way to be important. When they say it is 'fair' they are simply looking for a cheap excuse to make their actions seem justifiable in the eyes of others in order to make sure others get off their case.

    Again, I see no reason whatever to connect mistreating other people with a lack of objective understanding of reality.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

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  3. #263
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    . Fis (lacking critical thinking faculties) uncritically accept such cultural norms.


    Mr. Wing, have you not read any of the Fi descriptions provided in this thread?

    Where do you get that Fis lack critical thinking skills?

    And, please, tell me where you got that Fi leads to accepting cultural norms?!!?

    `
    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

    Veritatem dies aperit

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  4. #264
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flak View Post
    I didn't say you agreed that they were flaws, as if you did, we wouldn't be debating, but I have presented them.
    I have already answered this claim. There is no break between Ti and Te.

    They are merely working in different direction, there is a slight disjunction between the two because the pull in one direction is stronger than the other.

    Ti-Ne-Si sequence remains, however some functions need to be interposed between the two.

    So quite simply, you have failed to point out an error, you must clarify further or keep looking for an error.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

  5. #265
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainChick View Post


    Mr. Wing, have you not read any of the Fi descriptions provided in this thread?

    Where do you get that Fis lack critical thinking skills?

    And, please, tell me where you got that Fi leads to accepting cultural norms?!!?

    Shall I tell you why this kind of thing is frustrating to me, CC? Because you lay claim to every strength there is, and admit no weakness.

  6. #266
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    Fi do not LACK critical thinking skills. But it is not their dominant way of dealing with things either. That does not, however, mean that they do not have these skills. It only means they usually deal with things in another manner.

  7. #267
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainChick View Post

    Where do you get that Fis lack critical thinking skills?:
    Lack of critical thinking skills is a result of a lack of the Thinking faculty.

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainChick View Post
    :And, please, tell me where you got that Fi leads to accepting cultural norms?!!?:
    Fi identifies with the feelings of others. Aristotle argued that we naturally imitate those that we like. And we identify with those that we like. Therefore Fi imitates people. Most people Fis associate with (inevitably as we all do ) mirror the cultural norms, therefore inevitably Fis mirror the cultural norms.

    Fi however, identifies with less people than Fe as there is an unconscious attunement with the subjective valuations of the person. Fe clearly identifies with just about everything, thus explicitly mirrors the cultural norms, by imitating the most influential figures in society, or all figures rather. Yet Fi inevitably embraces cultural norms by imitating the few people the Fi identifies with.

    Only when the Fi person has developed Thinking, can such a person truly embrace the introverted individualistic spirit of Fi. In that case the Fi person will have a tough-minded, systematic approach towards being true to him or herself instead of uncritically taking on board the feelings of people the Fi identifies with and inevitably mirroring them.

    Thus in summary. Fi is uncritical because it lacks faculties of critical analysis. It inevitably embraces cultural norms by mirroring other people who embody cultural norms.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

  8. #268
    Senior Member Moiety's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    Because evolution has conditioned them to relate to people in a benevolent fashion. They would not have survived if they did not learn to relate to their tribesemen. Our culture has instantiated a code of behavior where a benevolent attitude towards others is highly vouched for. Fis (lacking critical thinking faculties) uncritically accept such cultural norms.
    So what about when Fi tells me to say "fuck it" to the norm, and disobey authority (the teacher in the class room, smoking marijuana even though it's illegal) and whatnot? What is there to be said about evolution and what is socially accepted, in that context?

    What is there to be said about anti-death penalty activist in pro-death penalty countries where it has been used for hundreds of years? Are their values dictated by society as well?


    And I'm assuming you're simply saying Fi lacks critical thinking faculties. Surely you are not trying to say Fi dominants lack critical thinking faculties?

  9. #269
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    Because evolution has conditioned them to relate to people in a benevolent fashion. They would not have survived if they did not learn to relate to their tribesemen. Our culture has instantiated a code of behavior where a benevolent attitude towards others is highly vouched for. Fis (lacking critical thinking faculties) uncritically accept such cultural norms.

    Irrationality has is irrelevant to wickedness in this context.
    If this were the case, then wouldn't there be a lot more FPs, considering how it's good for the continuation of society, and therefore survival?
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  10. #270
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    Fi identifies with the feelings of others. Aristotle argued that we naturally imitate those that we like. And we identify with those that we like. Therefore Fi imitates people. Most people Fis associate with (inevitably as we all do ) mirror the cultural norms, therefore inevitably Fis mirror the cultural norms.

    Fi however, identifies with less people than Fe as there is an unconscious attunement with the subjective valuations of the person. Fe clearly identifies with just about everything, thus explicitly mirrors the cultural norms, by imitating the most influential figures in society, or all figures rather. Yet Fi inevitably embraces cultural norms by imitating the few people the Fi identifies with.

    Only when the Fi person has developed Thinking, can such a person truly embrace the introverted individualistic spirit of Fi. In that case the Fi person will have a tough-minded, systematic approach towards being true to him or herself instead of uncritically taking on board the feelings of people the Fi identifies with and inevitably mirroring them.

    Thus in summary. Fi is uncritical because it lacks faculties of critical analysis. It inevitably embraces cultural norms by mirroring other people who embody cultural norms.
    Hmm, yet again, I think you failed to *really* read FineLine's, ani's, and sarah's posts, (just to name a few).

    Nowhere have any of these people, including myself, alluded to Fi being a mechanism to relate to cultural norms, nowhere!!!

    Cultural norms are fleeting and Fi is not really a wispy, here today, gone tomorrow, type of function.
    `
    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

    Veritatem dies aperit

    Ride si sapis

    Intelligentle sparkles

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