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  1. #211
    no clinkz 'til brooklyn Nocapszy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainChick View Post
    <---- Has nothing to do with my Fi and everything to do with my frustration!
    Frustration is an emotion. That your co scious of it means itsgot everything to do with your Fi.
    we fukin won boys

  2. #212
    soft and silky sarah's Avatar
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    What's all this about "faking" Fi and how is that relevant to CaptainChick's original question? Of course you can pretend to care deeply about stuff you don't really value, but ultimately the people who do that must know they don't really value it. People who have a highly developed use of Fi don't tend to see any value in doing that. They'd rather be living in a way that supports what they actually care deeply about than pretend to for anyone else's benefit, and they certainly wouldn't see any benefit in pretending for their own sakes.

    I have even seen type experts and theorists stumble all over themselves trying to explain Fi. It's just really hard to explain something that has no concrete, outward "appearance", and which can not be adequately explained by logical argument. The best attempt at linear and logical explanation I've ever seen is one created by an INTJ type theorist -- perhaps his being tertiary Fi makes him better able to understand and appreciate it than the type theorists who prefer Fe, and his well-developed use of Te comes in handy for the explanation.

    I'm referring to this book, if anyone has it.. Amazon.com: 8 Keys to Self Leadership: From Awareness to Action: Dario Nardi: Books I know it's $16, but I highly recommend it. It's the best source I've ever seen for explaining in depth each of the cognitive processes in all stages of development from least to most developed.

    Anyway, the way I've always tried to explain it (although it's not a rational argument) is that Fi provides those of us who use it and trust it with a set of deeply held convictions about who we are and what we value. It informs all our decisions and helps us make choices that align with what we care most about. I think it even has a lot to do with identity in the sense that we Fi users are big into making our choices reflect who we are personally rather than deferring to group norms and opinions, or connecting to the group's values at the expense of living true to our own values. Fi users also care deeply about the quality of the values we hold deeply. I really can't remember a time when I wasn't considering whether anything I was experiencing or doing was something I wanted to do or something worth caring about, although my decisions couldn't ever be adequately explained to others because they weren't rationally-formed. I don't ever stand there and argue with myself over the fine points of whether something is worth valuing, because my decision-making tends to be entirely nonverbal.

    Sarah
    ISFP

  3. #213
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    Thanks for your nice comment, FireyPhoenix. Thanks, too, to Blackmail! I appreciated the positive feedback in the course of the discussion with BlueWing.

    Quote Originally Posted by FireyPheonix View Post
    [...] It's probably not the best example, but if I have interpreted things correctly, it is an example of Fi in use (?though possibly not high functioning Fi).
    By the time you got angry at your co-worker, you were operating under stressed-out Te (your Inferior function). It's controlling, snappy, negative J.

    For Dominant Fi types (INFP and ISFP), at it's most basic level Fi is generally going to be a fairly instant value judgement to the effect that something is oh-so-right (to the point of being highly pleasurable) or oh-so-wrong ("No, I could never do that! That's not me!")

    As I understand it, everyone's Dominant function is so highly-tuned that it's effectively unconscious. (BlueWing pointed that out once in an old post, and it sounds right to me.) So the INFP's right/wrong value judgement appears to pop up out of nowhere, though on reflection after the fact you could probably retrace how and why that judgement exists in you.

    OTOH, one's Auxiliary (Ne in the case of INFPs) is usually more conscious and deliberate. That's the brainstorming function where you obsess over things a bit and mull them over.

    Under stress, people tend to exhibit their Inferior function in a stressed-out form (Te for INFPs and ISFPs). Since Te is a judging function, it tends to show up in INFPs as a harsh, controlling, irritated judgment. OTOH, the Inferior function can also be used in a positive, unstressed way with practice. With practice, INFPs and ISFPs can use it for short-term planning and implementation to become more productive.

    That's how I understand these things anyway, as a non-expert.

  4. #214
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Default "Fi: You only get it if you got it"

    [aimless incoherent ramble]

    I could say the same thing of Fe or any function really, but that would be like pushing water uphill (thanks bluemonday for that one!). Actually it would fit the extroverted functions more so than introverted ones because what the eyes see and the ears hear the mind believes and you can see extroverted functions. Which then makes me wonder if it's easier to understand what's in plain sight and everybody thinks they grasp or what's out of sight and people are already primed to think we're going to have to understand it so it opens them up to understanding more. OK, I'm not quite sure what I just wrote so I'll leave it alone.

    And now I'm also thinking that the way the title is even phrased already places the function itself into the deep and impenetrable fog, leading you to think there's something I don't get!!! I liken it to when you get a brain teaser or a riddle and you know the answer is embedded somewhere in there and if you look hard enough you'll get it. But this riddle is that there is no answer in there, joke's on you. The riddle turns into a knock-knock joke and then you're like damn, that was so obvious. OR, for all you party monsters out there, the bouncers will purposely let a long line form outside of the club to make people think 'what's going on in there?' Now when you get inside the place can be jumpin or you have two lame people doing the running man on the dance floor. Once again, I'm not sure what I just wrote so I'll leave it alone.

    Honestly, this is what I think people make Fi out to be: "Fi: You only get it if you got it." Should I believe the hype? Should I wait in that line? I'm in the audience and I'm waiting for the main act to come onstage and it's been 45 minutes. Will it be worth it? I dunno.

    [/aimless incoherent ramble]
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  5. #215
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    Honestly, this is what I think people make Fi out to be: "Fi: You only get it if you got it." Should I believe the hype? Should I wait in that line? I'm in the audience and I'm waiting for the main act to come onstage and it's been 45 minutes. Will it be worth it? I dunno.
    It's one of those things 'you only get when you've got it', but really, it's not as great as the hype says it is. If I were you, I wouldn't waste my time.
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  6. #216
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    Jackie, at best, CC's claims seem like a vague apology for Feeling or Feelers, yet nowhere has she made an explicit statement that Feelers are just as good at everything that Thinkers do.
    Well...It feels odd debating someone's intent who isn't long-dead, and is instead right here, but okay...

    The claims may be, in the mind of the claimant, an innocent defense of Feeling only disguised as an attack on Thinking, but they at least come across as arrogant, to some, and are a regular occurence. If someone preaches the strength of Thinking somewhere, you can bet that CC isn't far behind with the "Everyone both thinks and feels!" statement. Obviously true, but irrelevant.

    I would like to hear from CaptainChick what she "feels" Thinkers are more qualified to do than Feelers at this point in time, because I haven't seen her allude to anything of the sort in the past.

    You're reading things into her statements that were not there.
    Yes...This is what I do, I read between lines. It's not infallible, but I admit that I rely on it. I could argue that we're both looking at her statements and seeing two separate intentions, neither of which was explicit.

    This quotation you have cited does not support this charge of yours,

    She said that Feelers have a different approach clearly, yet nowhere do we see her stating that the approach of feelers is just as efficient.
    I paraphrase: "Thinkers debate truth; Feelers arrive at truth."

    The wording of this statement implies that Feelers have a more intimate relationship with truth, as if they hold it in their hands, and Thinkers are on the other side of the room talking about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    Yes because Fe preceeds Fi in the order of functions.

    In essence they are the same, the only difference is the output of Fe is inspired directly by an external object, yet the output of Fi is inspired by an internal emotive mindset. So in the case of Fe, the emotion is evoked directly by the work of art, yet in the case of Fi by a preconceived emotive perception of the work of art. For the Introverted Thinker the emotion is inspired by the analysis of the work of art, generally cannot emote before having thought through the circumstances. However, there is no subjective filter of emotive perceptions in this case, the emotional reaction is aimed directly at the object itself, in this case it is the analysis of the work of art. For this reason, you will almost never hear an INTP say, I feel this way simply because I do, I have no will to explain that. In addition to the very rational nature of the INTP, the Feeling of this type is very simple because it is easily traced to the external stimulus.

    The mindset of a TJ (Fi) is different, first there is an analysis, yet Fi does not emote directly in relation to the analysis, but to some mystical emotive perception interposed between the analysis and the process of commiting the emotion to such an analysis.

    In short, extroverted functions respond directly to the object, introverted functions respond to the subjective perception interposed between the function and the object.
    I know you wouldn't make a statement like this if you realized it was conjecture, but it is. This isn't fact, and there's no evidence whatsoever to support it, only the theory of function order, which is also conjecture.

    It could hypothetically be true, and it could hypothetically be false, so I choose not to rely on it. It's just as likely that it actually is Fi, and just as likely it's something we don't understand.
    Last edited by proteanmix; 11-01-2008 at 10:56 AM. Reason: merged posts

  7. #217
    Dhampyr Economica's Avatar
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    I've got Fi and I'm not sure I get it.

  8. #218
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    She should have said, thinkers attempt to understand the truth by disputing it with others, yet feelers through mere perception 'see/understand/sense'.

    This is the most accurate interpretation I can think of.
    I disagree with this, and the original CC statement. Feelers are just as likely to bounce ideas off people before making conclusions, for example.

    I would say the best way to describe the difference simply is that Thinkers come to specific conclusions, based on fact and/or logic, which may combine to form general conclusions. Feelers have notions which lead them directly to general conclusions, which are more subjective and based on principle.

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    Thus, before we go on to look for Fi or Ti in people, we must first have an idea of what Fi or Ti is. This justifies the precedence of pure typology over applied typology.

    [And other statements/posts]
    I also love to play with theory, for fun, but you treat it as more real than the people and behavior which are more important in this context. That doesn't follow logic if your goal is understanding the human mind, and helping others to. If your goal is simply to get the blood flowing in your brain, you might really have something.
    Last edited by proteanmix; 11-01-2008 at 10:56 AM. Reason: merged posts

  9. #219
    mrs disregard's Avatar
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    I agree with ajblaise that Fi is a "gut reaction".

    If anything, I find that more the reason to follow it. Listen to your body.

  10. #220
    no clinkz 'til brooklyn Nocapszy's Avatar
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    This is so immature...
    we fukin won boys

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