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  1. #131
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    Seconded!!!

    `
    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

    Veritatem dies aperit

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  2. #132
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    And who just gave this thread one star?!?!!?



    I shall slaughter you and baste you and broil you and eat you for DINNAAAAAAA!!!
    `
    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

    Veritatem dies aperit

    Ride si sapis

    Intelligentle sparkles

  3. #133
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    In this case the emotional reaction does clearly correspond with the occurence in the external world. However, in most cases of Fi emoting it does not.
    Can you prove it?

    ---

    I'd rather take the opposite stance: every emotions correspond to what happens in the "external world". Every emotions could be explained, theorized, and they constantly affect our perceptions, even our ability to rationalize (which can switch according to our current mood, for instance).
    The question is whether we are aware of this or not.

    Emotions aren't random streams coming out of nowhere. And I'd guess that even Fi, I mean inner values, are the result of an empirical process. They are shaped according to our own mental history, and how we have interpreted it.
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  4. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    In this case the emotional reaction does clearly correspond with the occurence in the external world. However, in most cases of Fi emoting it does not.
    So you agree with me?

    My idea was that while most people just don't make the connection of emotional cause and the value being acted upon, the process of Introverted Feeling is still the same. The reason that Introverted Feeling is pegged as irrational, and by extension, misunderstood, is because the emotional occurrence isn't recognized by the observer.
    Would you kindly read my signature?

  5. #135
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    Can you prove it?

    ---

    I'd rather take the opposite stance: every emotions correspond to what happens in the "external world". Every emotions could be explained, theorized, and they constantly affect our perceptions, even our ability to rationalize (which can switch according to our current mood, for instance).
    The question is whether we are aware of this or not.

    Emotions aren't random streams coming out of nowhere. And I'd guess that even Fi, I mean inner values, are the result of an empirical process. They are shaped according to our own mental history, and how we have interpreted it.
    Let me explain again. This, I believe was the part of our discussion that you were not clearly aware of before.

    Consider the following, I go down the street and get hit by a brick that fell from a two story building. I saw construction workers operating there.

    If I am a rational person, I will investigate the situation to see what has happened. Suppose what has happened is that a construction worker has accidentally knocked over a brick and it fell on my head. I would need to collect information and analyze it in order to discover this truth.

    If I am an irrational person, I will not investigate the situation to see what has happened. If I am irrational, I could come up with just about anything to explain why I got hit with a brick. For example, I may assume that the construction worker was trying to kill me, or that God is trying to punish me.

    In order to be rational we must use our Thinking function properly. Feelers often fail to do this. Therefore they have mistaken notions about the causes of occurences around them and ground the justifications for their actions on illegitimate reasons because of this.

    Consider the following example. An irrational person may ground his hostility towards the construction worker in the example above because of his conviction that the construction worker was trying to kill him.

    In summary, all emotional reactions are a direct result of an external stimulus, I never maintained otherwise. However, in order to properly understand the stimulus, rational thinking is required.

    The reason I call Feelers random is because they act on convictions that do not accurately depict their external circumstances. For example, the construction worker from the previous example may think the hostility of the irrational person towards him is random, or not relevant to the circumstances of realiy. He may think that the idea that he wanted to kill the person that he accidentally hit with the brick is random, or not a reasonable inference from the actual circumstances.

    In this case it is easy to see why somebody would make such an irrational inference. However, this is indeed an elementary case. Under more complex circumstances, irrational people make inferrences that are much more difficult to connect to circumstances of reality.

    Religious texts offer ample evidence for this phenomenon.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

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  6. #136
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harmonic View Post
    So you agree with me?

    My idea was that while most people just don't make the connection of emotional cause and the value being acted upon, the process of Introverted Feeling is still the same. The reason that Introverted Feeling is pegged as irrational, and by extension, misunderstood, is because the emotional occurrence isn't recognized by the observer.
    In this case you have used Thinking to explain your behavior. It was not just Feeling.

    Fi people can be rational if they use their Thinking, as your example shows.

    However, too often they neglect to do so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harmonic View Post
    The reason that Introverted Feeling is pegged as irrational, and by extension, misunderstood, is because the emotional occurrence isn't recognized by the observer.

    A more adequate way of putting it is that the thoughts of the Introverted Feeler (Introverted Feeling has no thoughts, though an Introverted Feeling person does have thoughts because he also has a Thinking function) are not clearly expressed, as most of us tend not to be overtly expressive of our inferior function. For this reason, in some cases legitimate justifications for behavior of the Introverted Feeler are not noticed.

    However, in most cases the justifications the Introverted Feeler advances in favor of his story are illegitimate because he lacks the Thinking skills, as is common for us to lack skills associated with our inferior function.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

  7. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainChick View Post


    ZOMG!!!

    Fi respects the truth more than anything, that's right, a-n-y-t-h-i-n-g!!!!
    No. Thinking favors objectivity (as opposed to Feeling), thus favors the truth. I don't expect you'll ever accept this, being who you are, but it is true.

  8. #138
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    In order to be rational we must use our Thinking function properly. Feelers often fail to do this. Therefore they have mistaken notions about the causes of occurences around them and ground the justifications for their actions on illegitimate reasons because of this.
    :rolli:

    Feelers are not stupid, irrational beings, sorry hon, hate to burst your highly prejudiced bubble.

    Feeling and thinking are inextricably intertwined mental processes. Every thought has a corresponding emotion, and every emotion has a corresponding thought.

    Unless of course you are Mersault, in Camus' The Stranger.
    `
    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

    Veritatem dies aperit

    Ride si sapis

    Intelligentle sparkles

  9. #139
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flak View Post
    No. Thinking favors objectivity (as opposed to Feeling), thus favors the truth. I don't expect you'll ever accept this, being who you are, but it is true.
    Thinkers dispute what's true, while Feelers sense/see/understand the truth.

    The end.

    -CC
    `
    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

    Veritatem dies aperit

    Ride si sapis

    Intelligentle sparkles

  10. #140
    Senior Member Simplexity's Avatar
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    This thread should be retitled Fi and Ti: They will never come to agreement as long as they stick to their own defenses.
    My cold, snide, intellectual life is just a veneer, behind which lies the plywood of loneliness.

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