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  1. #121
    Senior Member Simplexity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatsWhatHeSaid View Post
    I agree with CaptainChick. The values that F uses aren't just "passions." They're heuristics that are compiled based on experience and usually have logical order to them, it's just that the order is implicit, and the person doesn't always know WHY it's the right answer.
    Yes that is a long the lines of what I was thinking, but at the end of the day they are usually very personalized. Correct me if I'm wrong but would it not be like judging situations by the essence of the emotions they elicit. Would the user not rely on referencing these essences and recalling or deciding how they would "logically" act based on them.

    For example watching something being tortured would bring up images or "feelings" similar to things the user has experienced and from there they would act in accordance to what they would deem to be right based on these essences which are under the control of the user. Basically it seems like Fi is the impetus to act or decide/reason on things. It seems like they build more validity and "truth" based on how deep the event that left an imprint or how much self reflection was done.

    Like sometimes with Ti I will forgo rigorous analysis and rely on a more heuristic process, like a template, when coming to a conclusion. Sometimes when I'm not truly familiar with a topic it seems like I call on a number of different templates that I intuitively assume would mesh well together with the situation and I used those to come up with my conclusion.
    My cold, snide, intellectual life is just a veneer, behind which lies the plywood of loneliness.

  2. #122
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    Ahhhhhhhhh, Ti overload, makes..my..head...hurt!!!

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  3. #123
    Senior Member Simplexity's Avatar
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    Well Im just saying if you really want to come to a conclusion on what exactly Fi is and how it is in fact valid and a reasonable function to abide by you will have to flesh out your thoughts more. It seems like the only people that are really trying to do that are people who in fact have Ti as their dominant or axillary function. Its damn near impossible for anyone to explain something by just stating their base opinion on the matter, in terms of others understanding it.

    Thats like me saying you offended me therefore I hate you and you are a terrible person. It may very well be a justified conclusion to make but the only one who will ever understand why would be me, or others who have similarly been rubbed the wrong way by you. Is it necessary or should it be up to each individual to psychoanalyze someone in order to understand why they came to a conclusion. I don't think so, I don't even necessarily think its necessary for someone to use "logic" to justify it either, I just think it needs more context and more explanation of the process.
    My cold, snide, intellectual life is just a veneer, behind which lies the plywood of loneliness.

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    It is clear that the actions are a result of an emotional investment, but this does not exonerate the Fi from the charges of irrationality. Because the reasons for having such an emotional investment are illegitimate (logically invalid and often grounded on false premises), the Fi fully deserves the censure of its critics, if not ridicule. That is the point I have made to Blackmail earlier.
    Okay, lets take a hypothetical example.

    I have a grandmother that raised me from a very young age because both my parents died in an airplane wreck, and I love her very much. She dies. I want to mourn her death for several weeks and take several days off from work for her funeral.

    Do I deserve "ridicule" because I want to pay my respects to my dead grandmother? After all, it is pretty illogical to waste away several days wages to pay to visit a dead person.

    Clearly here we have an emotional investment that pushes someone to take action. My idea from the previous post is that most of these kind of situations don't have this kind of transparency, and thus receive no empathy. I didn't say that Fi is a particularly smart way to live. In retrospect, it is quite stupid to make decisions. I'd go out on a limb and say that it's like having a ball and chain on your ankle, but instead of you lugging ball and chain around, the ball and chain lugs you around.
    Would you kindly read my signature?

  5. #125
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harmonic View Post
    Okay, lets take a hypothetical example.

    I have a grandmother that raised me from a very young age because both my parents died in an airplane wreck, and I love her very much. She dies. I want to mourn her death for several weeks and take several days off from work for her funeral.

    Do I deserve "ridicule" because I want to pay my respects to my dead grandmother? After all, it is pretty illogical to waste away several days wages to pay to visit a dead person..
    In this case you have a clear-cut rationale for what you do. In this case you have used Thinking to explain your mindset. Fis generally tend not to do this. Therefore your set of statements is not emblematic of the Fi modus operandi.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

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  6. #126
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Law 1:

    Spot a famous philosopher that had a deep influence on mankind history. Ask Bluewing which type would he/she possibly be.

    Expected answer:

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    INTP of course.
    ---

    Law 2:

    Rub Bluewing the wrong way: Say that you do not agree with him, that he may have missed a point.

    Predictable answer:

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    The problem here appears to be that you lack the proper reasoning skills to understand the process.
    ---

    Conclusion: interesting subject to make experimentations with, very reliable, although in complete self-denial.
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  7. #127
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    Law 1:

    Spot a famous philosopher that had a deep influence on mankind history. Ask Bluewing which type would he/she possibly be.

    Expected answer:



    ---

    Law 2:

    Rub Bluewing the wrong way: Say that you do not agree with him, that he may have missed a point.

    Predictable answer:



    ---

    Conclusion: interesting subject to make experimentations with, very reliable, although in complete self-denial.
    Tell me more !
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

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  8. #128
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    In this case you have a clear-cut rationale for what you do. In this case you have used Thinking to explain your mindset. Fis generally tend not to do this. Therefore your set of statements is not emblematic of the Fi modus operandi.
    So the grief that I feel about my grandmother's death has no emotion in it at all?

    The idea of my first post is that all Fi values have an inborn reason that pushes the operator to consider the value greater than logic. The reason that these values seem irrational is because the persuading reason to act illogically is usually hidden inside the operator instead of being transparent to the public. To keep it short, emotion is irrational, acting upon it isn't (if we define rational as in acting upon something because of a reason).

    The reason I provided the grandmother example was because I wanted to demonstrate that acting on such values can be understood. Note how this is in contrast to my lifeguarding experience where my reason for breaking logic (nostalgia of times swimming w/family) wasn't disclosed to my co-workers, causing them not to understand why I didn't approve of taking unwarranted breaks, who clearly saw my actions as irrational.
    Would you kindly read my signature?

  10. #130
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harmonic View Post
    So the grief that I feel about my grandmother's death has no emotion in it at all?

    The idea of my first post is that all Fi values have an inborn reason that pushes the operator to consider the value greater than logic. The reason that these values seem irrational is because the persuading reason to act illogically is usually hidden inside the operator instead of being transparent to the public. To keep it short, emotion is irrational, acting upon it isn't (if we define rational as in acting upon something because of a reason).

    The reason I provided the grandmother example was because I wanted to demonstrate that acting on such values can be understood. Note how this is in contrast to my lifeguarding experience where my reason for breaking logic (nostalgia of times swimming w/family) wasn't disclosed to my co-workers, causing them not to understand why I didn't approve of taking unwarranted breaks, who clearly saw my actions as irrational.
    In this case the emotional reaction does clearly correspond with the occurence in the external world. However, in most cases of Fi emoting it does not.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

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