This discussion seems to be boiling down to two main points:
1. My 2nd paragraph of the OP. It says that NFs come up with their Ideals on their own, whereas SJ get their Values from somewhere else.
2. NF Ideals are future-oriented, whereas SJ Values are present/past-oriented.
The problem with Point 1 is that most SJs themselves do not agree with it. That's predictable; after all, society usually considers lack of independent thought a flaw. (And yet, they still expect you to follow rules. ) Is it that most SJs don't even realize they're doing it? Or could it often be much more subtle than the kind of "upholding traditions" that we're usually thinking about? Why is there a split between our theory and reality?
Unfortunately, it doesn't help that there are many more NFs than SJs on the board, so it's hard to get a general idea of the SJ interpretation. It's hard to see something through someone else's eyes... (not whining)
For Point 2, how about this? I thought of the timeline showing the lifespan of a belief:
It starts in the future, as a dream, an ideal. When it is sought and striven for enough, it becomes a value, in the present. Once it becomes common enough in the present, it is embedded as a rule, dictating from the past. After enough time, it may outlive its usefulness, and so become extinct. What do you think, an accurate portrayal?
Thanks for your patience and interest in the discussion.