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  1. #41
    IRL is not real Cimarron's Avatar
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    This discussion seems to be boiling down to two main points:

    1. My 2nd paragraph of the OP. It says that NFs come up with their Ideals on their own, whereas SJ get their Values from somewhere else.

    2. NF Ideals are future-oriented, whereas SJ Values are present/past-oriented.

    The problem with Point 1 is that most SJs themselves do not agree with it. That's predictable; after all, society usually considers lack of independent thought a flaw. (And yet, they still expect you to follow rules. ) Is it that most SJs don't even realize they're doing it? Or could it often be much more subtle than the kind of "upholding traditions" that we're usually thinking about? Why is there a split between our theory and reality?

    Unfortunately, it doesn't help that there are many more NFs than SJs on the board, so it's hard to get a general idea of the SJ interpretation. It's hard to see something through someone else's eyes... (not whining)

    For Point 2, how about this? I thought of the timeline showing the lifespan of a belief:

    It starts in the future, as a dream, an ideal. When it is sought and striven for enough, it becomes a value, in the present. Once it becomes common enough in the present, it is embedded as a rule, dictating from the past. After enough time, it may outlive its usefulness, and so become extinct. What do you think, an accurate portrayal?

    Thanks for your patience and interest in the discussion.
    Last edited by Cimarron; 10-26-2008 at 05:32 AM. Reason: statistics
    You can't spell "justice" without ISTJ.

  2. #42
    Senor Membrane
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    Good thread. Interesting stuff...

    Quote Originally Posted by Cimarron View Post
    1. My 2nd paragraph of the OP. It says that NFs come up with their Ideals on their own, whereas SJ get their Values from somewhere else.
    This seems true, but the way you say it makes it a bit blur to me. I as an NF am obviously not pondering about what would be the next value to uphold. It must come from outside. I think it comes from the patterns seen through intuition. Social patterns, for example. I see certain behavior leading to certain results, pass it to my F and see if I like it or not. As time goes by, I have many of this kind of observations and I can see a pattern in these patterns.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cimarron View Post
    The problem with Point 1 is that most SJs themselves do not agree with it. That's predictable; after all, society usually considers lack of independent thought a flaw. (And yet, they still expect you to follow rules. ) Is it that most SJs don't even realize they're doing it? Or could it often be much more subtle than the kind of "upholding traditions" that we're usually thinking about? Why is there a split between our theory and reality?
    I wouldn't call it lack of independence to obey the rules. By obeying the rules you get to be part of the society. It must be something subtle, yes. If we think about the "patterns to values" I was talking about, the way it would go for SF instead of NF would have to be something like, "I see how people behave, I see it's functional, it becomes accepted value. By time there will be more of these values and they will unite in some ways" What's the difference? It stays more concrete.. and I guess it is not as "fluid" as the N patterns. Because when you have a value derived from a concrete situation, you won't drop it until you get a concrete situation telling you the value has died. Does this sound about right?

  3. #43
    IRL is not real Cimarron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nolla View Post
    Good thread. Interesting stuff...



    This seems true, but the way you say it makes it a bit blur to me. I as an NF am obviously not pondering about what would be the next value to uphold. It must come from outside. I think it comes from the patterns seen through intuition. Social patterns, for example. I see certain behavior leading to certain results, pass it to my F and see if I like it or not. As time goes by, I have many of this kind of observations and I can see a pattern in these patterns.
    Most ideas have parts or inspirations taken from the outside world, but for NFs, maybe not in as concrete a way as you described in your 2nd paragraph.

    Quote Originally Posted by nolla
    I wouldn't call it lack of independence to obey the rules. By obeying the rules you get to be part of the society. It must be something subtle, yes. If we think about the "patterns to values" I was talking about, the way it would go for SF instead of NF would have to be something like, "I see how people behave, I see it's functional, it becomes accepted value. By time there will be more of these values and they will unite in some ways" What's the difference? It stays more concrete.. and I guess it is not as "fluid" as the N patterns. Because when you have a value derived from a concrete situation, you won't drop it until you get a concrete situation telling you the value has died. Does this sound about right?
    I wasn't saying that, I was saying that SJs' "adoption" of other people's values indicates lack of independent thought. That is frowned upon by society. So maybe SJs, often subconsciously, can't admit that they adopt values from others.

    The last part of that 2nd paragraph is what I meant when I was talking about SJ Values being dependent on concrete things. But can NF Ideals really lack that dependence, that attachment? The answer probably has to do with your 1st paragraph. If so, could you explain that a little more?
    Last edited by Cimarron; 10-26-2008 at 07:52 AM. Reason: more thoughts
    You can't spell "justice" without ISTJ.

  4. #44
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    I suppose the patterns are not as related to concrete situations even when derived from them. If someone is using intuition a lot, there is always the feeling of vagueness. I expect that's the difference. After an NF has drawn a value from a concrete situation, it becomes abstract and separated from the situation and combined to other values, so it can possibly even work differently in a similar situation. Using S in the similar case would lead to seeing the situation just as it is and not so much like a hazy bunch of connections. So, the values derived would be more precise and dependent on the situation.

  5. #45
    IRL is not real Cimarron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nolla View Post
    I suppose the patterns are not as related to concrete situations even when derived from them. If someone is using intuition a lot, there is always the feeling of vagueness. I expect that's the difference. After an NF has drawn a value from a concrete situation, it becomes abstract and separated from the situation and combined to other values, so it can possibly even work differently in a similar situation. Using S in the similar case would lead to seeing the situation just as it is and not so much like a hazy bunch of connections. So, the values derived would be more precise and dependent on the situation.
    Ah, so this is what another poster meant when they said NF Ideals tend to be more "flexible", or adaptable to different situations, you might say. It's starting to come together now.
    You can't spell "justice" without ISTJ.

  6. #46
    señor member colmena's Avatar
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    I used 'pliable', earlier. I should have explained it better. Nolla's done a fine job.

    I'll come back to this thread in a minute (or the other one). It's interesting.
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  7. #47
    IRL is not real Cimarron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by colmena View Post
    I used 'pliable', earlier. I should have explained it better. Nolla's done a fine job.

    I'll come back to this thread in a minute (or the other one). It's interesting.
    Thanks. I get the gist of what you're saying, though it may always be a vague subject. Another point is that I (and others) don't necessarily agree with it, as explained in previous posts. We're wondering whether the assumption is incorrect, or our perception of it is flawed. Then again, I haven't given it much thought, either.
    Last edited by Cimarron; 10-26-2008 at 08:36 AM. Reason: summary
    You can't spell "justice" without ISTJ.

  8. #48
    Senior Member Anja's Avatar
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    Here's a thought, Cimarron.

    This seeming paradox of accepted social values versus what really is going on may be the result of people tending to slip into the "comfortable" even though it's not actually comfortable!

    Victor sometimes mentions "the trance." I'm not exactly sure how he applies that term but how many of us go through our day attending busily to our basic needs and problems that we don't really spend time asking ourselves if we are genuinely being true to our stated values? I think this happens more often than any of us realize and it's probably a cause of some of our irritability.

    How many times do you hear people stating commonly accepted tenets of society and perceive that it's not really what they believe, or live, at all. As though we simply mimic what's expected of us nearly unconsciously.

    I hear a lot of nonspeak in our society. In a word, we forget to pay attention.
    "No ray of sunshine is ever lost, but the green which it awakes into existence needs time to sprout, and it is not always granted to the sower to see the harvest. All work that is worth anything is done in faith." - Albert Schweitzer

  9. #49
    Member Thunderlight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bella View Post
    When I think of tradition, I think of outdated, useless ideas and ways of doing things, that old, stubborn, people cling to.

    I kind of have the same feeling as Bella here.

    I was raised catholic + born gay= clash.

    I really have not recovered. From this I have developed my own belief system from my personal beliefs and not society's. I think of traditions as old and pointless.

    So I agree with the fact that NFs' make their own ideals because I do. It does also seem that SJs' tend to believe what is presented to them. My next door neighbor is an SJ and he says some of my thoughts are weird. The thoughts he thinks are weird are ones that are not commonly accepted or said out loud by most people. hope this helps

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anja View Post
    For my ISTJ husband and I the main difference I see is that his values are about material things, time, and money. And mine are more about intangibles like loyalty, honesty, stuff like that.

    When it works we manage to cover all the bases. When it doesn't we can really clash about what's important.
    Same here in my relationship with my ISFJ (welllll T/F borderline) boyfriend. He sees the action & I see the intent behind the action.

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