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  1. #31
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bella View Post
    When I think of tradition, I think of outdated, useless ideas and ways of doing things, that old, stubborn, people cling to.
    And I think of that Robin Williams movie, Dead Poets Society.
    You grew up around all that traditional and pro-apartheid sentiment in South Africa right? I see how that could veer one against traditionalism.

  2. #32
    Senior Member Bella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    You grew up around all that traditional and pro-apartheid sentiment in South Africa right? I see how that could veer one against traditionalism.
    Actually, by the time I nearly finished primary school, apartheid was on it's way out, so I was a part of the new generation (sort of). I didn't experience enough of it for myself, for it to influence a lot of my thinking etc.
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  3. #33
    Senior Member Bella's Avatar
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    Also, I don't really see apartheid as tradionalism. That's way too kind a word. "Stupidity" is more like it.
    yesiknowimamiserablegrouchnowgoawayovmeleor

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  4. #34
    No moss growing on me Giggly's Avatar
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    The word on the street is that SJ's are supposed to be traditional (as in old-fashioned) and NF's are supposed to be more progressive-thinking, but I have certainly seen enough SJ's who are far from traditional and NF's who are the epitome of old-fashioned.

  5. #35
    Senior Member Bella's Avatar
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    ^ For sure.
    yesiknowimamiserablegrouchnowgoawayovmeleor

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  6. #36
    movin melodies kiddykat's Avatar
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    The comment on rules/ideals is true.

    In my experiences ESTJs tended to be the 'rule- makers.' Me: I'm a rule-breaker! I absolutely hate rules (laws like not running red lights or driving 25 mph in neighborhoods, fine. -When it comes to other peoples' lives- I'm respectfully cautious. Values? I abide by the golden-rule). Uptight, stringent rules? Strictness.. are something I cannot stand, at all.

    When I read this question, I immediately thought of say. . . putting 2 people in an interview with strong SJ/NF tendencies. In this classic example ESTJ/ENFP: Imagine sir O'Reily (from the o'reily factor show) with a stereotypical free-spirited hippie sitting down in a discussion with one another. That's the main difference between two people who speak from 'ideals' vs. 'traditions,' someone who's more enthusiastically fascinated about what could be (ENFP) vs. someone who's firmly dictatorial on what should be, already is (ESTJ) . That's what defines the duality for me. Sometimes, they can meet half-way- if both parties make the effort to understand one another, IF. When they do, it could be an eerily pretty picture!

    Not all NFs share the same ideal's though. My example comes from a personal experience from dealing with a family member of the identical ESTJ personality (and looks). I think I'm gonna have a heart-attack now.. Bye.

  7. #37
    IRL is not real Cimarron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anja View Post
    The rules might be more concerned with how his values are expressed in action.
    What do you mean here? I think you're saying "rules" are the application of "SJ Values".
    Quote Originally Posted by Anja
    He's pretty dogged about doing/seeing things the way his family did.
    Judging from the responses of SJs here and on other threads, I think there is often more to it than that. Perhaps not even the SJ himself would be able to put his finger on it, but...

    Quote Originally Posted by Hmm
    The word on the street is that SJ's are supposed to be traditional (as in old-fashioned) and NF's are supposed to be more progressive-thinking, but I have certainly seen enough SJ's who are far from traditional and NF's who are the epitome of old-fashioned.
    Or, taking the train of thought from Viv's post above this, maybe the SJs with "progressive" attitudes only developed those beliefs because they spent time with other people who had already held those beliefs. Then those beliefs were passed on to the SJ. But can't similar belief-transfer happen with the NF? Maybe not as easily and readily, since NFs say they are more likely to "question conventional ways"? A huge stumbling-block gets in the way when we consider SJs who live in an environment which shuns "following conventional ways". It may look almost predictably contrarian, it seems. Doing the opposite of what is popular and widely-accepted.

    (Short Version: Many say that those NFs are choosing to be old-fashioned, whereas those SJs have become accustomed to being progressive.)




    I was looking for more of the "how NFs build their beliefs" vs. "how SJs build their beliefs". Remember that both hold "abstract" values...but is their approach different? Their meaning? Their understanding? Their attachment?

    I think we've touched the answer, but left it pretty vague. Something still seems not to be clicking in our analysis.

    **Sorry for the incessant questioning. This state of not getting anywhere is a little frustrating, I guess.
    Last edited by Cimarron; 10-25-2008 at 09:18 PM. Reason: Hmm's post, summary, more polite
    You can't spell "justice" without ISTJ.

  8. #38
    Senior Member Anja's Avatar
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    Trying here. Still not exactly sure what the question is.

    I thought Viv's llama vs. hatchet man was quite apt! Hee.

    Here's the only other thought that comes to mind at present -

    Since we've been talking about aging elsewhere I've been thinking about my husband and the changes I've seen. As a younger man he was more apt to try different ideas and attitudes and as he gets older he gets more set in his ways.

    Many of those ways are the ways of his parents. That's probably true of us all to some extent. We tend to resort to the familiar.

    It would be very difficult to imagine him, as he exists now, as a (responsible) hippy-type.

    It's as though, once having done some exploration, he has settled upon what works best for him and fairly much refuses to budge from his solutions. As thought there was only one and, once found, he isn't going to go to any more effort to stretch with possibilities. It may exhaust him to do so.

    This is probably true for most people with time. Everyone seeks "safety" and comfort. I suspect it is more rigid with SJs.
    "No ray of sunshine is ever lost, but the green which it awakes into existence needs time to sprout, and it is not always granted to the sower to see the harvest. All work that is worth anything is done in faith." - Albert Schweitzer

  9. #39
    Senior Member Anja's Avatar
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    Oh. Wait a minute! You aren't tip-toeing here with whose values are the more appropriate are you?
    "No ray of sunshine is ever lost, but the green which it awakes into existence needs time to sprout, and it is not always granted to the sower to see the harvest. All work that is worth anything is done in faith." - Albert Schweitzer

  10. #40
    Senior Member placebo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cimarron View Post
    So we often hear Ideals associated with NFs, that they hold their beliefs above most other things in life (within reason). And we hear that SJs hold their values above most other things in life (within reason). Thean what's the difference, besides semantics?

    Is it solely in how they arrive at their ideals/values? That SJs usually derive their beliefs from others' around them, especially since we hear these mentioned with "traditions", and hold & cherish those; whereas NFs usually find beliefs on their own, rather than from outside sources, and hold & cherish those? I don't even think these observations hold true for SJs and NFs as I've outlined them here... But I'm asking, what could it be?

    Main question: What's the difference?
    I've seen SJ values played out with NF ideals most clearly between my mom and I. There's that parental-child aspect, but I think SJ and NF differences are definitely there. SJs stick with what they know works. What they have learned from. They like to stick with what they've learnt because they know it works and because it's their comfort zone. Ideals and things like that exist, but those are irrelevant when it comes to reality. I think they often like to take a lot of responsibility upon themselves and like to use what they know to potentially help others, or do what they think will help others. I think because of their experiences and their tendencies to take responsibility that that leads them to believing that rules and traditions are very important in keeping things together. NFs on the other hand don't really seem to need the same kind of structure. We don't react to reality the same way that SJs seem to. As an NF I can see the importance of tradition and the importance of rules, but I can also see so much more beyond that and the possibilities. It seems maybe SJs are scared/uncomfortable going beyond what they already have learnt, while NFs see many more possibilities out of what we have already experienced.

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