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  1. #21
    ByMySword
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    Quote Originally Posted by EvanTheClown View Post
    I'd most definitely sacrifice commonly-held public opinion of events (aka traditions) for the beliefs I hold closest to my heart.
    I feel the same way, Brother.

    There are traditions that are close to my heart, though.

    Others I've found to be very trivial, and I've dropped them for ones I've found work better for me.

  2. #22
    Senior Member Bella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ByMySword View Post
    I feel the same way, Brother.

    There are traditions that are close to my heart, though.

    Others I've found to be very trivial, and I've dropped them for ones I've found work better for me.
    Which traditions, if I may ask. I'm trying to understand this love of tradition, which I don't feel I have. Maybe if I have examples...
    yesiknowimamiserablegrouchnowgoawayovmeleor

    It's Mizzz ST, thank you...

  3. #23
    ByMySword
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bella View Post
    Which traditions, if I may ask. I'm trying to understand this love of tradition, which I don't feel I have. Maybe if I have examples...
    My family is very religious.

    So many of the traditions that I've dropped are based in religious beliefs, which pretty much affect other beliefs as well, i.e. political, ethical, moral, philisophical, etc.

  4. #24
    IRL is not real Cimarron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bella View Post
    Which traditions, if I may ask. I'm trying to understand this love of tradition, which I don't feel I have. Maybe if I have examples...
    Usually when we think of traditions, we mean continuing doing things because of their emotional value. To us ISTJs, that can be important *(I'll give an example in a minute), but not as important as usefulness. I think for us, "SJ traditions" are almost like habits that we pick up, then never stop using. Kind of like...once we find a system that works, we just stick to that one consistently, until it becomes counterproductive. Then if we can be bothered getting off our rears, we'll find a new system to get comfortable with. ....I don't see how that's strictly related to values, but if someone tells us our "system" is wrong/foolish/misguided, we could be emotionally affected by it (and not just because of the verbal insult). I'm stretching, here. But people have made that observation about ISTJs.

    *Semi-emotional example for me is the way I fold my napkin at the dinner table. My mom had always folded it that way for us when we were still little, so I've always folded it like that since. There's no reason to change it, so I've kept it the same. If someone were to tell me "that's a stupid way to fold a napkin", it would feel like an indirect insult to my mom. I wouldn't take too kindly.

    I hope that's a good example...I'm going out on a limb here, I could be making stuff up.
    You can't spell "justice" without ISTJ.

  5. #25
    Senior Member Kyrielle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cimarron View Post
    Usually when we think of traditions, we mean continuing doing things because of their emotional value. To us ISTJs, that can be important *(I'll give an example in a minute), but not as important as usefulness. I think for us, "SJ traditions" are almost like habits that we pick up, then never stop using. Kind of like...once we find a system that works, we just stick to that one consistently, until it becomes counterproductive. Then if we can be bothered getting off our rears, we'll find a new system to get comfortable with. ....I don't see how that's strictly related to values, but if someone tells us our "system" is wrong/foolish/misguided, we could be emotionally affected by it (and not just because of the verbal insult). I'm stretching, here. But people have made that observation about ISTJs.
    Oddly enough, I've viewed "tradition" as the same thing. I think the term "good habits" is probably an accurate synonym. I think sometimes we do have traditions that have "emotional" value, but I would argue that the value is more symbolic (which could easily make said tradition a ritual). Like in your example. Your napkin folding has become a symbol that references your mother. Or. Lowering a flag to half-mast when someone dies. There's no rational reason for it. It doesn't do anything practical, but it's a symbol of respect to the life of that person.

    To answer your question: As was agreed a few posts ago, the difference is just in how (and possibly why) rather than what. It's very likely that many SJs and NFs will share the same values, but their arrival to those conclusions will be quite different.
    "I took the one less traveled by,
    And that has made all the difference."

    Robert Frost

  6. #26
    Senior Member animenagai's Avatar
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    i think NF's are kinda like kids that never stopped asking 'why'. why is it bad to lie? because honesty is a virtue? why is honesty a virtue? because if everybody lied... etc. therefore, for us traditions are only the first part of the question. it is the answer that was given due to certain circumstances. therefore, if we feel like the situation's changed in a significant way, we have no reason to follow those traditions.

    personally, i think there are some things that there are things that always matter, and those are my values. these things are quite basic though such as compassion, honesty without a good reason to lie, having an open mind etc.

    the thought of following traditions for the sake of traditions worry me, because it is like brainwashing yourself for the sake of it.

  7. #27
    IRL is not real Cimarron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyrielle View Post
    Oddly enough, I've viewed "tradition" as the same thing. I think the term "good habits" is probably an accurate synonym. I think sometimes we do have traditions that have "emotional" value, but I would argue that the value is more symbolic (which could easily make said tradition a ritual).
    Interesting. Who else thinks that tradition can be described this way, and differentiated from Ideals?
    You can't spell "justice" without ISTJ.

  8. #28
    Senior Member Bella's Avatar
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    Cimarron and ByMySword I got your answers only now. (Teh thread was broken)
    yesiknowimamiserablegrouchnowgoawayovmeleor

    It's Mizzz ST, thank you...

  9. #29
    Senior Member Bella's Avatar
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    When I think of tradition, I think of outdated, useless ideas and ways of doing things, that old, stubborn, people cling to.
    And I think of that Robin Williams movie, Dead Poets Society.
    yesiknowimamiserablegrouchnowgoawayovmeleor

    It's Mizzz ST, thank you...

  10. #30
    Senior Member Anja's Avatar
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    Jack said something about rules and I think they are much more applicable for my husband than for me. Many of them are written in stone and seldom verbalized which can keep me guessing. I think he may have rules about his rules. Heh. Generally I have no idea I've broken one until after the fact.

    The rules might be more concerned with how his values are expressed in action.

    He's pretty dogged about doing/seeing things the way his family did. And since I was about twenty-five and realized that my parents weren't God, I've been weighing and questioning what I was taught by example with what fits for me.

    Yeah, I think these guys, if not the movers and shakers of institutional and social tradition, are certainly good candidates for the enforcers of "The way it's always been and the way we're going to continue doing it." (Or else.)

    As far as what values either of us is willing to relenquish, I think we've both learned that it is a neccessity if one isn't going to become a recluse but when either of us has to do so it is with great reluctance and discomfort.
    "No ray of sunshine is ever lost, but the green which it awakes into existence needs time to sprout, and it is not always granted to the sower to see the harvest. All work that is worth anything is done in faith." - Albert Schweitzer

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