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  1. #11
    Senior Member Bella's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cimarron View Post
    True, Bella, since our T usually wins the T vs. F battle, we ISTJs don't put much stock in traditions that have outlasted their usefulness. That seems to be the trend with us.

    But of course I'm talking about all SJs. Something's still not fitting, here.
    Okay, I know this is about SJ. Can I just ask this one thing.
    I agree with what you said, but that goes against EVERY description of ISTJ I've ever read. What do you make of that?
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  2. #12
    EvanTheClown (ETC) Clownmaster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cimarron View Post
    Edit: If the dichotomy is abstract vs. concrete, maybe we could ask it this way. Which beliefs (abs. or conc.) would each type sooner sacrifice? You know, when you're caught in a tough spot. Would that help root out the difference and make it more clear?
    I'd most definitely sacrifice commonly-held public opinion of events (aka traditions) for the beliefs I hold closest to my heart.

    I didn't have any answer to this thread until I read the part of your statement I quoted.

    Because you can't spell "Slaughter" without "Laughter"

  3. #13
    Senior Member Angry Ayrab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cimarron View Post
    True, Bella, since our T usually wins the T vs. F battle, we ISTJs don't put much stock in traditions that have outlasted their usefulness. That seems to be the trend with us.

    But of course I'm talking about all SJs. Something's still not fitting, here.

    AngryAyrab, that's why I said this:
    My bad, I was just reaffirming, your point, thats all. Next time I will learn to answer the question fully.

  4. #14
    IRL is not real Cimarron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EvanTheClown View Post
    I'd most definitely sacrifice commonly-held public opinion of events (aka traditions) for the beliefs I hold closest to my heart.

    I didn't have any answer to this thread until I read the part of your statement I quoted.
    But my statement is based on the assumption that the concrete vs. abstract split is the source of the difference between NF Ideals and SJ Values. Do you think that is a good assumption to make?





    To Ayrab, I wasn't mad, if that's what you mean. I see what you're saying now. Thanks for helping out!

    And Bella, not really sure. The type descriptions of ISTJs probably weren't written by ISTJs, so we're not seeing things through the same eyes.
    Last edited by Cimarron; 10-25-2008 at 02:45 PM. Reason: other responses
    You can't spell "justice" without ISTJ.

  5. #15
    EvanTheClown (ETC) Clownmaster's Avatar
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    I think that concrete vs. abstract, if not being the source of difference, should at least be considered heavily in the distinction. Some of my ideals/values come on very sporadically, but my ISTJ brother has ideals/values that have come into place over years of personal experience, trial and error. I think the intuitive feeling aspect of my personality type allows me to come to similar conclusions through an entirely different medium.

    Because you can't spell "Slaughter" without "Laughter"

  6. #16
    señor member colmena's Avatar
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    Tradition is usually confined to time and environment context, and can hamper rationale.

    Having strong yet pliable values/ideals from a wealth of different sources and cultures, along with a propensity for logic, allows one to better innovate whilst maintaining a context based conscience.
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  7. #17
    IRL is not real Cimarron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EvanTheClown View Post
    I my ISTJ brother has ideals/values that have come into place over years of personal experience, trial and error.
    That might have some weight. Si is the 1st function for two of the SJs, and you did sound like you gave a good description of "tradition", or at least of how traditions start. (It sounds relatively true for me, anyway.)

    Quote Originally Posted by colmena
    Tradition is usually confined to time and environment context, and can hamper rationale.

    Having strong yet pliable values/ideals from a wealth of different sources and cultures, along with a propensity for logic, allows one to better innovate whilst maintaining a context based conscience.
    This sounds close to what some may call "concrete vs. abstract", but not quite. Which may be a good clue.

    So you're saying you think SJ "Values" are mostly small-unit beliefs, as opposed to NF "Ideals" being mostly broader in scale? But then can SJ values (like loyalty, honesty, and others people often mention) be described as small-unit beliefs? I would think it could only be true if you're talking about how the person developed those beliefs in the first place--abstract values dependent on concrete things. And that raises the question: Can abstract values be independent of concrete things? I guess I could see how a few of them can...
    Last edited by Cimarron; 10-25-2008 at 03:54 PM. Reason: colmena, more thoughts
    You can't spell "justice" without ISTJ.

  8. #18
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    What's funny is that I don't even operate in day to day life constantly assessing my 'ideals' and viewing myself as a value-driven idealist.

    Lots of stuff can be simple human nature as well, across the board for all types. Like, we all have values. We all have beliefs. etc.

    I have an ISFJ friend, and she told me not too long ago, "You really THINK about things. People can tell that you put a lot of thought into what you like and dislike, and agree and disagree with, and why..." -- and she contrasted that with 'most people' not putting much thought into why they believed what they believed, or did what they did.

    Now my ISFJ friend has many strong values - and I would argue in some ways she has a stronger set of values than I, in the sense that you will always know where she stands, because her values ARE more traditional -- honesty, compassion, kindness, definitly the religion in which she was raised, etc etc -- and they're solid (and I happen to value many of the things she values anyway). Mine are probably more varied and circumstantial, although I do have things that are more foundational and I won't bend, regardless. And I don't intend this to be a judgement (again, she's a good friend), just an observation - I don't think she ever really thought about why she believes what she believes - it was more a 'given', or 'just the right thing to do'.

    So maybe a distinction is -- SJ will be more likely to acquire the values that they are brought up to aspire to/value, without necessarily questioning the validity of them, or going through the steps of wondering WHY the value or belief is good or true, whereas NF will be more likely to build their own set of values/beliefs from scratch. And perhaps an SJ is more susceptible to 'nurture', and their environment growing up, since they could more likely acquire the traits/beliefs of the culture in which they were raised.

    [obviously generalizations, but then, that's what mbti is anyway]
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  9. #19
    IRL is not real Cimarron's Avatar
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    Cascademn, that brings us back to what I said in the OP:
    Is it solely in how they arrive at their ideals/values? That SJs usually derive their beliefs from others' around them, especially since we hear these mentioned with "traditions", and hold & cherish those; whereas NFs usually find beliefs on their own, rather than from outside sources, and hold & cherish those?
    So you basically agree with that?
    You can't spell "justice" without ISTJ.

  10. #20
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cimarron View Post
    Cascademn, that brings us back to what I said in the OP:

    Is it solely in how they arrive at their ideals/values? That SJs usually derive their beliefs from others' around them, especially since we hear these mentioned with "traditions", and hold & cherish those; whereas NFs usually find beliefs on their own, rather than from outside sources, and hold & cherish those?
    You've caught me being long-winded. Imagine that! ;-)

    So you basically agree with that?
    From observation, yes, I basically agree with that. But not just with 'tradition' (which in my mind, and in type descriptions, seems to only encompass holiday rituals, social expectations, family stuff, etc)- also expanding it out into life view, politics, religion, philosophy...
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

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