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  1. #261
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    *still coma*
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  2. #262
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    Quote Originally Posted by cn1234567890 View Post
    ooh samuel! that was a nice in depth one for uber...how does mine read? besides a morbidly obese manwoman
    Uhm, "I take things to the extreme and my sense of humor may go over-the-line"?
    :confused:

  3. #263
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    Quote Originally Posted by Night View Post
    I've changed my avatar for a specific purpose - and not for the Gauntlet.

    Any takers...?
    Tough one. Okay: "You've got a powerful mind (head) and can reach goals that you set for yourself with ease (wings). You'll do whatever it takes to achieve what you strive for (weapon) but remain pure in the view of others who cannot detect your ambitious side (white clothes)." I could analyze the outside wastelands and inside marble room thing too but I think those would be infered with the information at hand.

    Can we please discuss what the hell demiurgic means?

    (yeah, I know I could look it up, but that would be no fun )
    A sort of demi-god that creates the material world and is viewed as the originator of evil for doing so.

  4. #264
    Wonderer Samuel De Mazarin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Didums View Post

    [demiurge:] A sort of demi-god that creates the material world and is viewed as the originator of evil for doing so.
    It should be noted (though Didums didn't necessarily imply this, it should be said for people who could make the mistake), demiurges originate evil in the sense that by producing materiality, they also bring in division, which inevitably leads to the good-evil split (there's a lot more to this argument)... but the demiurge itself isn't necessarily evil...

    Some early Christians (the so-called Gnostics) believed Yahweh was a demiurge (in this case a dictatorial egotist) and that there was a more primordial divine force behind Yahweh that was all goodness, even beyond good and evil(!). The texts are too numerous to divine a single reading though... others say the demiurge is under Yahweh and that Yahweh is the greatest good... but they quote the demiurge as saying something to the effect that he is the only god who should be worshipped, there is no other, and that sounds a lot like what Yahweh said to his prophets in the OT.

    Before Gnostics, Plato also talks about a demiurge responsible for the world of appearances (change, materiality) from the world of Forms (ideals, eternal and static perfections)... [let's not get into the debate about whether there are really two worlds or if they interact how they do so]... for Plato as with the later Gnostics, there exists a primordial well-spring or foundation or whatever (it gets kind of vague when you read into it) which for Plato is the Form of the Good.
    Madman's azure lie: a zen miasma ruled.

    Realize us, Madman!

    I razed a slum, Amen.

    ...............................................

  5. #265
    Wonderer Samuel De Mazarin's Avatar
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    Night


    The 'demiurgic entity' who represents Night is cloaked in sheer white with a diaphanous cloak of the same color... but her hair and hands, and one might assume all of the rest of her body, is of a deep black hue... gigantic 'raven's' wings are unfolded, as if anticipating a quick flight. A large black sword is unsheathed, held in her right hand, ready for use. She is standing at attention, ready for action.

    The 'demiurgic entity' is standing in a room with a large circular window whose curtains are fluttering with the wind, which is clearly blowing in from outside... thus, the window has no glass. Outside, the landscape is unclear, insofar as one cannot tell if it is an ocean or a valley, though I assume it is an ocean... what is clear is that there are clouds scattered all over the dark-orange welkin with a hint of sunlight to the left... we cannot gauge whether or not the sun is to the east or the west, since we cannot tell if it is 'rising' or 'setting'.

    __________________________________________________ _________

    The circular window looks out onto the world and its shape, calling to mind the shape of the globe, indicates the demiurgic entity's oversight of the world. The wind is bringing in news of the goings-on in various regions of the earth... the psychological landscape is ambiguous: it could be sunset or sunrise... the various hues of orange are not particularly evocative of either hope or despair, and yet speak to a merging dichotomy, a dialectic of brewing trouble and the dying down of a storm... thus, the world can be said to be in tumult, a dialectic of good and evil, to put it simply/

    The demiurgic entity is also a union of oppositions, accoutered in the traditional color of purity and yet herself bearing a color of limitless night (!), unyielding in its depth. The giant raven's wings underscore the opposition of white and black whilst also coordinating with the sword and the breeze from without to indicate the strange entity's role... she is the guardian of justice, with sword in her right hand (right being the direction of justice in traditional artistic symbolism, i.e. sitting on the right hand of God), wings ready for flight... she will be borne not only on the strength of her own mission but based on principles of justice, as dictated by the various currents of the winds, which blow in accordance with the tenor of various events occurring in the world: great deeds, malfeasances, even wishes and desires, the constant interplay of justice and injustice... and the demiurgic entity will be there to right wrongs, merciless and dispassionate yet always cleaving to clearly demarcated lines of justice which we, as humans, may not be able to discern.

    I use the phrase 'demiurgic entity' in accordance with Night's self-appellation, though I cannot read from the picture an intimation of the strange woman-figure's role in creation of the world... but as per Night's use of the adjective, it certainly works to interpret the entity as 'demiurgic', insofar as she administers and judges the material world... she reflects its sundered nature, the split between good and evil that reigns in materiality.

    __________________________________________________ _______________

    With that, we come to the third and final part: it is an application of the analysis of 1)the particular form, color and basic compositional elements of the picture and 2)the reading of the thematic and subjective aspects of the picture for the understanding of both Night's choice and, one hopes, Night himself.

    Night is clearly not a demiurgic entity. And yet, he aspires to the sort of supernal existence of a being who can see through the fog and deal not with vagaries or ethical quandaries but in fact with the truth itself. He is a man of ideals who wishes to transcend the status of a mere moralizer to the status of a moral being, secure in his knowledge of what is right. He reads the world according to basic axioms which, to his mind, are incontestable, and tries to deal fairly and impartially with all. In all likelihood, Night has been influenced by or concerned with, directly or indirectly, notions related to Leibniz and Frege's aspirations for a universal language based on firm logical principles, also Bertrand Russell and Alfrend North Whitehead's attempt to explain all of mathematics on firm logical principles (via set theory), Kantian splits between noumena and phenomena (and hence a split between man as material being and ethical being)... etc.

    What is right and what is wrong? How has Heisenberg thwarted this positivist aspiration for clear-cut standards?

    As with many avatar pictures, Night's picture belies a secret desire tempered by an understanding that the world is not this clear-cut... were he a demiurgic entity, he could read the news in the wind as clearly as bullet-pointed facts, sort through the ambivalences of conflict, both human and 'academic'... but he is not... perhaps the picture expresses his longing for something like this... in any case, whether he aspires to the status of d.e., believes himself to actually be one, or wishes it were possible at all, the picture says a lot.
    Madman's azure lie: a zen miasma ruled.

    Realize us, Madman!

    I razed a slum, Amen.

    ...............................................

  6. #266
    RETIRED CzeCze's Avatar
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    Wow, I hate to 'cut in' right after SDM's in depth analysis of Night's avatar -- but I just wanted to say I totally disagree about Mort's previous avatar.

    To me, it just typified the in your face humor and performance of drag queens. Grotesque, over the top, unreal -- that's what they're about. There can be and is a political aspect to any kind of gender performance, as it highlights all the trappings of gender and expectation and yes, even beauty. It's making a statement. There's also a lot of bitchy, queeny, super feminine gone testerone power kick that goes into drag queen performance as well, which the picture exemplified. There's also this pride, this attitude that, "You think I'm an ugly freak, so I'll show you just how captivating and beautiful ugly freak can be, I'm gonna own it, morph it, revel in it, and shove it back in your face'. So yes, an aggro energy.

    Man...I can't communicate well this morning.

    But anywhoo, yeah in itself I didn't find anything inherently offensive or scary in Mort's avatar...or maybe I did. It reminds me of Divine of John Waters' fame.

    Now, the fact that he used that pictures as his avatar -- well, then you could try to deconstruct his reasoning and motivation. If the avatar is shocking or grotesque, maybe it's because Mort was intentionally using it to shock you.

    Intent is 3/4 of context and perception...or something...or dammit, I'm gonna stop now.
    “If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.” ― Oscar Wilde

    "I'm outtie 5000" ― Romulux

    Johari/Nohari

  7. #267
    Senior Member Sunshine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dana View Post
    My avatar is symbolic of transcendental focus.. the kind that is as powerful and overwhelming as the ocean.
    ???

  8. #268
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Didums View Post
    Tough one. Okay: "You've got a powerful mind (head) and can reach goals that you set for yourself with ease (wings). You'll do whatever it takes to achieve what you strive for (weapon) but remain pure in the view of others who cannot detect your ambitious side (white clothes)." I could analyze the outside wastelands and inside marble room thing too but I think those would be infered with the information at hand.



    A sort of demi-god that creates the material world and is viewed as the originator of evil for doing so.
    Quote Originally Posted by Samuel De Mazarin View Post
    demiurges originate evil in the sense that by producing materiality, they also bring in division, which inevitably leads to the good-evil split (there's a lot more to this argument)... but the demiurge itself isn't necessarily evil...
    Quote Originally Posted by Samuel De Mazarin View Post


    The 'demiurgic entity' who represents Night is cloaked in sheer white with a diaphanous cloak of the same color... but her hair and hands, and one might assume all of the rest of her body, is of a deep black hue... gigantic 'raven's' wings are unfolded, as if anticipating a quick flight. A large black sword is unsheathed, held in her right hand, ready for use. She is standing at attention, ready for action.

    The 'demiurgic entity' is standing in a room with a large circular window whose curtains are fluttering with the wind, which is clearly blowing in from outside... thus, the window has no glass. Outside, the landscape is unclear, insofar as one cannot tell if it is an ocean or a valley, though I assume it is an ocean... what is clear is that there are clouds scattered all over the dark-orange welkin with a hint of sunlight to the left... we cannot gauge whether or not the sun is to the east or the west, since we cannot tell if it is 'rising' or 'setting'.

    __________________________________________________ _________

    The circular window looks out onto the world and its shape, calling to mind the shape of the globe, indicates the demiurgic entity's oversight of the world. The wind is bringing in news of the goings-on in various regions of the earth... the psychological landscape is ambiguous: it could be sunset or sunrise... the various hues of orange are not particularly evocative of either hope or despair, and yet speak to a merging dichotomy, a dialectic of brewing trouble and the dying down of a storm... thus, the world can be said to be in tumult, a dialectic of good and evil, to put it simply/

    The demiurgic entity is also a union of oppositions, accoutered in the traditional color of purity and yet herself bearing a color of limitless night (!), unyielding in its depth. The giant raven's wings underscore the opposition of white and black whilst also coordinating with the sword and the breeze from without to indicate the strange entity's role... she is the guardian of justice, with sword in her right hand (right being the direction of justice in traditional artistic symbolism, i.e. sitting on the right hand of God), wings ready for flight... she will be borne not only on the strength of her own mission but based on principles of justice, as dictated by the various currents of the winds, which blow in accordance with the tenor of various events occurring in the world: great deeds, malfeasances, even wishes and desires, the constant interplay of justice and injustice... and the demiurgic entity will be there to right wrongs, merciless and dispassionate yet always cleaving to clearly demarcated lines of justice which we, as humans, may not be able to discern.

    I use the phrase 'demiurgic entity' in accordance with Night's self-appellation, though I cannot read from the picture an intimation of the strange woman-figure's role in creation of the world... but as per Night's use of the adjective, it certainly works to interpret the entity as 'demiurgic', insofar as she administers and judges the material world... she reflects its sundered nature, the split between good and evil that reigns in materiality.

    __________________________________________________ _______________

    With that, we come to the third and final part: it is an application of the analysis of 1)the particular form, color and basic compositional elements of the picture and 2)the reading of the thematic and subjective aspects of the picture for the understanding of both Night's choice and, one hopes, Night himself.

    Night is clearly not a demiurgic entity. And yet, he aspires to the sort of supernal existence of a being who can see through the fog and deal not with vagaries or ethical quandaries but in fact with the truth itself. He is a man of ideals who wishes to transcend the status of a mere moralizer to the status of a moral being, secure in his knowledge of what is right. He reads the world according to basic axioms which, to his mind, are incontestable, and tries to deal fairly and impartially with all. In all likelihood, Night has been influenced by or concerned with, directly or indirectly, notions related to Leibniz and Frege's aspirations for a universal language based on firm logical principles, also Bertrand Russell and Alfrend North Whitehead's attempt to explain all of mathematics on firm logical principles (via set theory), Kantian splits between noumena and phenomena (and hence a split between man as material being and ethical being)... etc.

    What is right and what is wrong? How has Heisenberg thwarted this positivist aspiration for clear-cut standards?

    As with many avatar pictures, Night's picture belies a secret desire tempered by an understanding that the world is not this clear-cut... were he a demiurgic entity, he could read the news in the wind as clearly as bullet-pointed facts, sort through the ambivalences of conflict, both human and 'academic'... but he is not... perhaps the picture expresses his longing for something like this... in any case, whether he aspires to the status of d.e., believes himself to actually be one, or wishes it were possible at all, the picture says a lot.
    In good conscience, I couldn't bring myself to physically reduce either of your (concise) instruments.

    You're both very smart. Much smarter than I am.




    Your posits are quite correct. Incident over infidel; pattern over pauper.

    The demiurge is key; of much greater distinction than the avatar itself. You grafted this theme into the infancies of your thought streams. Very impressive.

    Samuel De Mazarin is spot-on with his evaluation of the demiurge as a (pantheistic) manifestation of primal creation; an atomic particle from which all compounds may flourish.

    To this end, our (not just mine...) demiurge is amoral; an abstraction, victimized by his inescapable identity. Eve. Judge Holden. Tom Bombadil. The Black Goat with a Thousand Ewe. "And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him".

    Eternity baptized as flesh.

    Biological fission. Billions of times over, cooperating for mutual gain. As we communicate with words, so too does our anima pulse. Symbiosis. Phonics and physiology. Our biology is simply a description of encrypted pattern. Nitrogen; Carbon; Hydrogen and Oxygen. Words we use to survive.

    In what language are we composed?

    "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth." We know this to be impossible; our logic does not permit spontaneous creation. Nothing is without form. We can artfully assert that all creation exists unto itself. Even the vastness of space draws companionship. How is it possible to create - from nothing - everything?

    The creation mythos is extraneous; superficial to the trajectory of those whose hearts first gave it breath. Oxygen. The answer is incidental to the species. Spacetime. A line as a curve? A fold as a shortcut? Impossible.

    Demiurgic, we unavoidably become. Thought extends to question; question to creation.



    Where we go from here depends the elegance of our unified prose...

  9. #269
    Wonderer Samuel De Mazarin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sunshine View Post
    ???
    Dana thinks Osho was enlightened. No comment.
    Madman's azure lie: a zen miasma ruled.

    Realize us, Madman!

    I razed a slum, Amen.

    ...............................................

  10. #270
    Wonderer Samuel De Mazarin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Night View Post
    In good conscience, I couldn't bring myself to physically reduce either of your (concise) instruments.

    You're both very smart. Much smarter than I am.




    Your posits are quite correct. Incident over infidel; pattern over pauper.

    The demiurge is key; of much greater distinction than the avatar itself. You grafted this theme into the infancies of your thought streams. Very impressive.

    Samuel De Mazarin is spot-on with his evaluation of the demiurge as a (pantheistic) manifestation of primal creation; an atomic particle from which all compounds may flourish.

    To this end, our (not just mine...) demiurge is amoral; an abstraction, victimized by his inescapable identity. Eve. Judge Holden. Tom Bombadil. The Black Goat with a Thousand Ewe. "And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him".

    Eternity baptized as flesh.

    Biological fission. Billions of times over, cooperating for mutual gain. As we communicate with words, so too does our anima pulse. Symbiosis. Phonics and physiology. Our biology is simply a description of encrypted pattern. Nitrogen; Carbon; Hydrogen and Oxygen. Words we use to survive.

    In what language are we composed?

    "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth." We know this to be impossible; our logic does not permit spontaneous creation. Nothing is without form. We can artfully assert that all creation exists unto itself. Even the vastness of space draws companionship. How is it possible to create - from nothing - everything?

    The creation mythos is extraneous; superficial to the trajectory of those whose hearts first gave it breath. Oxygen. The answer is incidental to the species. Spacetime. A line as a curve? A fold as a shortcut? Impossible.

    Demiurgic, we unavoidably become. Thought extends to question; question to creation.



    Where we go from here depends the elegance of our unified prose...
    Ah! I read more morality into it... it seems you speak more of process... how did we get here? Though one of the questions of which you speak is how we deal with morality.... I neglected to speak of the demiurge and the process of material evolution as a self-sustaining process mainly because the picture intimated a very strong set of moral issues... and (at least with me) you're being far to generous... I couldn't write with the precision you've shown in your response. I'm a rambling man!

    But...

    I once thought about a fetus in the womb being nothing more than a living, breathing question mark.... all its neuronal circuits primed for questions and answers.... and even though the process begins in utero, it truly takes flight once the child is born and begins to see and experience the world.... experience: yes or no... more questions... experience: yes or no... more questions... for instance, a child sees sunlight... depending on the context, the degree of light, the emotional response, company, etc. at least a few, if not dozens and hundreds of questions which require yes and no answers will arise... further experience will often settle some of these while creating so many more... usually we come to some sort of tentative conclusion about, say, sunlight, but the sheer weight of experience and accrued answers makes changing our thoughts on sunlight more difficult, unless new evidence comes to our senses to rework the mental case file...

    pure logical speculation only works off of earlier conclusions, which are all logical, but due to the fact that they are founded on the world's contingencies, may not be ultimately 'true', if there even is such a thing... so what I'm saying is, there's a very good PERSONAL reason, for instance, for a Democrat to have chosen the Democratic party and Republican the Republican party... we just can't observe all the millions and billions etc. of questions and logical yes-no sequences that went into building up that decision.... countless binary left-right decisions to make, consequent firings... there's a lot of contingency in how the brain grows up, but it's eminently traceable (by a supermind).... so, really, all of our 'personality' and 'dilemmas' are really just that... so many sets of "two lemmas"... problems figuring out unperceived axiomatic questions... axons waiting to link up two neurons which, when linked solve the problem at hand... solve the lingering doubt... once resolved, everything makes sense... in other words, we're biological supercomputers... so all choices are really evolved from earlier choices which may have been purely out of our hands... there were many questions to which we had to say yes, steps in a logical chain which ultimately determine all that comes after... we'll never really come to the end of this whole Great Chain of Reasoning because then we're dead.... the computer just shuts down...

    Everything is so contingent, yet the reality of who we are at the present moment, and who we are becoming, is so very real that it might seem like it was an ineluctable result, which it is... it is just too boggling for the mind.... the awe-inspiring thing about all this is that my typing on these keys is linked back to the very mixing of elements during the time of the birthing of stars, planets and galaxies... even if the linkage was not of a universally necessary nature (i.e. it had to happen this way under any circumstances) it certainly did happen this way... we are the stuff of the universe... and realization of this makes atheists as in awe of the universe as if they were theists... indeed, moreso, because the "impossible" of Night's last post, that asymptote in our reasoning, is not cut as with the Gordion Knot by Alexander, a cheap trick... it is instead held up and wondered at.

    We cannot figure it all out, so we must rely ever more on gut. ah.... this brings me back to Kant's 'proof' in the Critique of Pure Reason that we can never prove the existence of God, the soul, and immortality of said soul.
    Madman's azure lie: a zen miasma ruled.

    Realize us, Madman!

    I razed a slum, Amen.

    ...............................................

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