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  1. #51
    a white iris elfinchilde's Avatar
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    oh. definitely. i plead vanity for desire.
    You gave me hyacinths first a year ago;
    They called me the hyacinth girl.
    Yet when we came back, late, from the Hyacinth garden,
    Your arms full, and your hair wet, I could not
    Speak, and my eyes failed, I was neither
    Living nor dead, and I knew nothing,
    Looking into the heart of light, the silence.

    --T.S Eliot, The Wasteland

  2. #52
    ish red no longer *sad* nightning's Avatar
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    *mouse pretends to swoon*

    You have to wonder how often women in the past pretended to swoon because it was appropriate and how often they actually swoon...

    Too much twists and turns makes me dizzy, but no fainting...

  3. #53
    Member skip's Avatar
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    the binds of equality, and along with it, we lowered the expectations of what we wanted from men.
    Equality elevates, not denigrates. Reducing everyone to the lowest common denominator is a poor excuse for equality.

    ("Binds of equality?" Where do people get this stuff?)

  4. #54
    a white iris elfinchilde's Avatar
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    ^ common misperception. equality does not mean sameness.

    also: sweeping statement: "Equality elevates, not denigrates." I could easily argue that for all the years of equality that women have fought for, the only thing that women have become are pressured, overstressed, under the burden of having to be perfect daughters, perfect career women, perfect wives and mothers.

    And look at who it is who are regularly 'worshipped' in pop culture: britney spears, paris hilton.

    Equality may denigrate as well as it elevates. It all depends on the application of it.

    "Freedom is the right to choose our own chains."--Valery. The notion of equality comes with its own expectations, and that in itself is a bind.
    You gave me hyacinths first a year ago;
    They called me the hyacinth girl.
    Yet when we came back, late, from the Hyacinth garden,
    Your arms full, and your hair wet, I could not
    Speak, and my eyes failed, I was neither
    Living nor dead, and I knew nothing,
    Looking into the heart of light, the silence.

    --T.S Eliot, The Wasteland

  5. #55
    Member skip's Avatar
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    the only thing that women have become are pressured, overstressed, under the burden of having to be perfect daughters, perfect career women, perfect wives and mothers.
    That's all you see, and you see that as connected with equality?

    You're Asian and how old?

  6. #56
    ~dangerous curves ahead~
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    Quote Originally Posted by skip View Post
    Equality elevates, not denigrates. Reducing everyone to the lowest common denominator is a poor excuse for equality.

    ("Binds of equality?" Where do people get this stuff?)
    Agreed in bold. The hard part is, not everyone sees this though, and if you're one of the few who does, would you not agree that for the mass of people, equality is that reduction to the lowest common denominator. It is like the crabs in a barrel mentality - where if you put crabs in a barrel, you need not ever tie them up. They'd never escape as no one would let another get out.

    Hence why I saw it as a bind. That false precept of equality.

    Quote Originally Posted by skip View Post
    That's all you see, and you see that as connected with equality?

    You're Asian and how old?
    No, I think there's some misunderstanding there:

    Elfie and I are coming from the stand that, equality should have been a choice for women, to choose if for e.g. they wanted to be career women, and/or mothers, daughters, wives etc.

    But somehow, along the line, that message seems to have been warped. The OR got lost.

    Hence it results in a generation of women, many whom are confused if they are not sexy, unhappy being only mothers/only career women, proud of their education, wondering if being assertive has driven away men... And for those who'd have been content to be only career-women, or only family women, there's somewhat a question that, have I wasted part of my life/am I incomplete since I did not have the other part? Add to that question of identity, race, culture, religion, it becomes a layered question perhaps only each can answer for herself.

    So.... unless the woman reconciles that within herself, if she believes the media's story on the perfect woman, how much of stress is she putting trying to fulfill the roles of everything?

    I doubt we disagree on any view there between us actually. Just that, as said earlier - the perception of equality as held by the masses was never for elfie and me. The stress comes when others subscribe to it and they're the majority.

    Hope that explains.

  7. #57
    Member skip's Avatar
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    "Elfie?" Oh, good grief. You're not Australian, are you? They annoyingly truncate everything and add "-ie" on the end. Makes them sound like they're perpetually talking to three-year-olds.

    Much of what you posted has to do with the insecurities of identity and youth, not feminism.

  8. #58
    a white iris elfinchilde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skip View Post
    That's all you see, and you see that as connected with equality?

    You're Asian and how old?
    sigh. ie, that because women have fought for equality, they've instead misgotten the concept, and expect themselves to be perfect in every way, rather than being just who they really.

    Because true equality allows you to choose what you want to be: you do NOT have to take on every role, and be everything that everyone ELSE wants you to be. You can, simply, be you.

    I will not respond to the Asian and age slight. You are likely younger than i am.

    Skip: ad hominem. In a logical debate, you argue on the points and not via casting aspersion on the characters of others. nor insinuations. If you cannot hold so, this discussion is off.

    Define feminism. The power of the femme, and the power of the feminist, are two very different things.

    "That's all you see"---Did i even say that it was my personal opinion? A good debater is able to see EVERY side of the argument. I said "One could also argue that...." The connotation is another perspective.

    You've thus far cast aspersion on age, race and mentality. Whilst ignoring all the points of the debate. Let's see how well you argue now.
    You gave me hyacinths first a year ago;
    They called me the hyacinth girl.
    Yet when we came back, late, from the Hyacinth garden,
    Your arms full, and your hair wet, I could not
    Speak, and my eyes failed, I was neither
    Living nor dead, and I knew nothing,
    Looking into the heart of light, the silence.

    --T.S Eliot, The Wasteland

  9. #59
    ~dangerous curves ahead~
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    Quote Originally Posted by skip View Post
    "Elfie?" Oh, good grief. You're not Australian, are you? They annoyingly truncate everything and add "-ie" on the end. Makes them sound like they're perpetually talking to three-year-olds.

    Much of what you posted has to do with the insecurities of identity and youth, not feminism.
    I don't ever recall mentioning feminism in my response. I'd said, false precept of equality. As if that is feminism.

    And I never said it was mine. Was merely laying out what I thought was the misconception the masses held.

    What I call my sister, should be my choice; though, I thank you for letting me know that Australians annoyingly truncate everything and add "-ie" to the end.

  10. #60
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skip View Post
    "Elfie?" Oh, good grief. You're not Australian, are you? They annoyingly truncate everything and add "-ie" on the end. Makes them sound like they're perpetually talking to three-year-olds.

    Much of what you posted has to do with the insecurities of identity and youth, not feminism.
    If only ideas matter and not people, then the race and age and nationality of the people involved should not be an issue for you... only the ideas count.

    It sounds like you've got some strong ideas on the topic. Why not explain in more detail so people can sift through them?

    ...meanwhile... everyone else should probably just take a deep breath.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

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