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  1. #471
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Negative_ View Post
    Well I suppose it could be argued that given that there's no apparent logical reason to be religious (aside from, like, a god revealing itself to you and proving, to you, that he/she/it/them exists...but that could also mean you're just crazy and seeing things), people who are otherwise rational that believe in a god(s), compartmentalize their logic, which is definitely not intelligent - at least in my opinion....not that I'm totally innocent of doing it, or anything.
    I think my point is that people are so universally guilty of errors in that respect, even the greatest geniuses, that it's over-the-top to say a sign of lacking intelligence. Certainly, no one has the right to look down on it in great conceit.

    Telavengalists. Crusaders. Creationists. Flat earthers. Yeah, these are people who are doing things either guilty or stupid, wrapped up in a religious costume. Buuuuut... Secular people can be just as stupid/guilty, and religious people are not always so. Any fool with an athiest tag doesn't have the right to spit down at anyone that attends a church.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  2. #472
    desert pelican Owl's Avatar
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    I'd like to thank CC, FTJ, Sass, and Snowey for sharing their personal experiences. Despite our differences, I find each of you to be fascinating. I'd also like to thank Victor, Night, Ivy, and Magic Poriferan for their contributions--your insights are appreciated.

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainChick View Post
    Maybe not everyone is able to, or willing to engage in critical thinking.
    Good! I'd encourage you to meditate on this. What is critical thinking? What does it say about people if they are unwilling to engage in it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Negative_ View Post
    Well I suppose it could be argued that given that there's no apparent logical reason to be religious (aside from, like, a god revealing itself to you and proving, to you, that he/she/it/them exists...but that could also mean you're just crazy and seeing things), people who are otherwise rational that believe in a god(s), compartmentalize their logic, which is definitely not intelligent - at least in my opinion....not that I'm totally innocent of doing it, or anything.

    I can somewhat understand hoping that a god exists, but believing that one does exist seems like taking it a step too far, to me.


    I like it here in reality atheisia.
    What are the ethics of belief? What does it mean to compartmentalize logic?

  3. #473
    Senior Member reason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Negative_ View Post
    Well I suppose it could be argued that given that there's no apparent logical reason to be religious.
    What is a logical reason to believe something? The conclusion of a valid argument depends on whatever premises you begin with, but even so those premises can never provide a reason to believe the conclusion, since valid arguments always beg the question. In other words, there is no logical reason to be religious and there is no logical reason to be nonreligious, because there is no logical reason to think anything. There is good logical reasoning, but no "logical reason".
    A criticism that can be brought against everything ought not to be brought against anything.

  4. #474
    desert pelican Owl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by reason View Post
    What is a logical reason to believe something? The conclusion of a valid argument depends on whatever premises you begin with, but even so those premises can never provide a reason to believe the conclusion, since valid arguments always beg the question. In other words, there is no logical reason to be religious and there is no logical reason to be nonreligious, because there is no logical reason to think anything. There is good logical reasoning, but no "logical reason".
    +1

    Logic will tell us what we can derive given what we believe. But whence do we obtain the basic set of statements to which we can apply formal reasoning?

  5. #475
    Senior Member reason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Owl View Post
    +1

    Logic will tell us what we can derive given what we believe. But whence do we obtain the basic set of statements to which we can apply formal reasoning?
    What we believe is not even important, and we regularly reason with premises which we do not believe. In other words, logical reasoning can just as readily reveal to me what is entailed by my beliefs, as it can reveal to me what is entailed by your beliefs, or any possible beliefs. That is what gives logic its objective character i.e. no matter who is doing the reasoning or about what, assuming that their reasoning is valid, everyone will get the same results. That is why ideas, theories, hypotheses, etc. also have an objective character, because their formal structure is publically accessible to anyone and exists indpendent of the feelings and wishes of individuals. Indeed, that is why we can intelligibly discuss ideas at all.

    It doesn't matter where we obtain the premises which we reason from. To concern yourself with that would be to commit the genetic fallacy i.e. the origin of an idea does not determine its truth or falsity. Instead of worrying about the origin of ideas, consider whether they are true or not.
    A criticism that can be brought against everything ought not to be brought against anything.

  6. #476
    desert pelican Owl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by reason View Post
    What we believe is not even important, and we regularly reason with premises which we do not believe. In other words, logical reasoning can just as readily reveal to me what is entailed by my beliefs, as it can reveal to me what is entailed by your beliefs, or any possible beliefs. That is what gives logic its objective character i.e. no matter who is doing the reasoning or about what, assuming that their reasoning is valid, everyone will get the same results. That is why ideas, theories, hypotheses, etc. also have an objective character, because their formal structure is publically accessible to anyone and exists indpendent of the feelings and wishes of individuals. Indeed, that is why we can intelligibly discuss ideas at all.

    It doesn't matter where we obtain the premises which we reason from. To concern yourself with that would be to commit the genetic fallacy i.e. the origin of an idea does not determine its truth or falsity. Instead of worrying about the origin of ideas, consider whether they are true or not.
    What ideas must be believed to even speak meaningfully of truth?

  7. #477
    Senior Member Negative_'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    I think my point is that people are so universally guilty of errors in that respect, even the greatest geniuses, that it's over-the-top to say a sign of lacking intelligence. Certainly, no one has the right to look down on it in great conceit.

    Telavengalists. Crusaders. Creationists. Flat earthers. Yeah, these are people who are doing things either guilty or stupid, wrapped up in a religious costume. Buuuuut... Secular people can be just as stupid/guilty, and religious people are not always so. Any fool with an athiest tag doesn't have the right to spit down at anyone that attends a church.
    Oh, I agree. I don't actually think religious people are automatically less intelligent than nonreligious people (or that there's an accurate way to measure intelligence. I don't even know exactly what intelligence is), was just trying to play devil's advocate :p

    Quote Originally Posted by Owl
    What are the ethics of belief? What does it mean to compartmentalize logic?
    Hm. Not sure what the ethics of belief would be (:confused or even exactly what that means, lol. In what you quoted, I probably should've said 'claimed a god exists', or something more specific. By compartmentalize logic, I meant by ignoring logic in a particular situation or aspect of life.

    Quote Originally Posted by reason
    What is a logical reason to believe something? The conclusion of a valid argument depends on whatever premises you begin with, but even so those premises can never provide a reason to believe the conclusion, since valid arguments always beg the question. In other words, there is no logical reason to be religious and there is no logical reason to be nonreligious, because there is no logical reason to think anything. There is good logical reasoning, but no "logical reason".
    You're right, I hadn't even realized that. Very good point, thanks.


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  8. #478
    Senior Member reason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Owl View Post
    What ideas must be believed to even speak meaningfully of truth?
    None. To speak meaningfully about something does not presuppose a belief in whatever that something is. For example, I can speak meaningfully about the theory of intelligent design, and that I do not believe that it is true is not important. The idea of truth can be meaningfully spoken of regardless of the beliefs of anyone, and even irrationalists do so quite regularly when they claim that truth is an illusion, or that truth is relative.

    There are presuppositions of logic and rational investigation, and rational discussion, criticism and inquiry can only survive where people accept those presuppositions, such as those which pertain to truth, falsity, entailment, meaning, etc. However, nobody, not even rationalists need to be committed to these presuppositions, and can hold rationalism itself open to scrutiny and criticism. In other words, a rationalist need not be committed to rationality, and so the problem of what must be assumed before rational investigation can begin is of no important consequence.
    A criticism that can be brought against everything ought not to be brought against anything.

  9. #479
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
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    I like you, reason.
    I like you because we tend to agree.

    I think you and I would have some interesting conversations in real life.

  10. #480
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    ftj, I don't think it's normal for Rexella to be a turn-on. Even if you're Jack Van Impe.
    Hey, for the past twenty years, Rexella's hair-do has been the one constant I can count on in my life. Everything else is transitory.

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