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  1. #31
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    Am I allowed to assert that someone's belief is wrong???

    Yes, I am, as are you.

    If someone claims that I killed 24 tapirs yesterday in Las Vegas, yes, I reserve the right to say that their belief is a false one, and therefore wrong.

    I am not a relativist.

    Not all opinions/beliefs are inherently equal.
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    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

    Veritatem dies aperit

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    Intelligentle sparkles

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seanan View Post
    However, I do not, because I cannot, i.e. nothing would lead me to believe that such a thing exists. I feel connected to others who, like me, cannot believe in the existence of a supernatural power as far as their common sense and use of logical reasoning dictate.

    Prejudice is pretty obvious in those statements and, for clarification, those believing otherwise lack common sense and/or logical reasoning abilities? I dare say most being called nonsensical or illogical would take at least a modicum of offense.

    I saw a later post in which the scientific method was mentioned... well, most scientists I've known.. though people of faith still, would say they were hallucinating if they saw a UFO land in their front yard. Its too much for their logical/scientific minds to wrap around. Sometimes thinking outside the box is required and, in those instances, what is familiar logically may not be recognizeable. But that's defending which I don't intend to continue as the thread's point is now obvious to me and a waste.
    I'm sure that CaptainChick and every other honest atheist would accept the existence of god or whatever thing is being believed in if he were to present himself in public where everyone can see him. I think what she meant is that none of these silly apologetic arguments that believers use could convince her to believe. Every argument for the existence of gods is loaded with logical fallacies.

    If a decent scientist saw a space ship land in his front yard the first thing he would do is collect all the evidence he could. Who are these crappy scientists who won't accept evidence that's right in front of them?

  3. #33
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    ^Too funny!!!
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    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

    Veritatem dies aperit

    Ride si sapis

    Intelligentle sparkles

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by sassafrassquatch View Post
    If a decent scientist saw a space ship land in his front yard the first thing he would do is collect all the evidence he could. Who are these crappy scientists who won't accept evidence that's right in front of them?
    Agreed. I think most scientists would love to come across irrefutable truth of the existence of God and go down in history as the person who finally resolved that question once and for all. Scientists generally don't care what the truth is. They just care about establishing that it really is the truth.

  5. #35
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sassafrassquatch View Post
    I think what she meant is that none of these silly apologetic arguments that believers use could convince her to believe. Every argument for the existence of gods is loaded with logical fallacies.
    I agree with this. An argument for the existence of god(s) is lost before it is begun. I don't think anybody can KNOW. Knowledge and belief are separate phenomena. I guess that makes me an agnostic, if a (sometimes) churchgoing one.
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  6. #36
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FineLine View Post
    Scientists generally don't care what the truth is. They just care about establishing that it really is the truth.
    And that is a beautiful thing.



    First discern the truth, then proceed with feelings, and, or opinions.

    One cannot create a truth based on what they want to believe.
    `
    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

    Veritatem dies aperit

    Ride si sapis

    Intelligentle sparkles

  7. #37
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    I don't think that's necessarily so, though (re: scientists not caring). They're human and they get entrenched like the rest of us.
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  8. #38
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    That's what peer review is for

  9. #39
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    True!

    I've seen it said that prevailing scientific thought only changes when the old folks with the old ideas die and the young whippersnappers get their tenure.
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  10. #40
    Senior Member nemo's Avatar
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    Whenever I hear/read the word "nihilist" I think of that scene in The Big Lebowski with that nihilist past out, floating in the pool, and The Dude remarking that nihilism "Looks exhausting."

    Ok, but atheism.

    My justification for being an atheist is complicated, and I wont lie that there's probably some personality quirks that predisposed me to clashing with it in the first place.

    My general view now is that it's 1) a problem of falsifiability; and 2) destroyed by Occam's Razor, with the fact that the universe seems completely explainable without a god.

    It's like trying to disprove that an invisible pink unicorn doesn't exists on Mars. There's no a priori way to do it. But just because we can't disprove something, doesn't mean we should assume it's existence. Furthermore, I see no objective reason to assert a god's existence to explain anything, and even in the things we don't understand, there are ample more simple explanations that don't assume the existence of some transcendental entity.

    I just throw god in with all the invisible pink unicorns, flying spaghetti monsters, etc.

    Quick note: there are plenty of subjective reasons to assert god's existence. I just don't have them.

    Moreover, it seems to me that some kind of ubiquitous, transcendental entity is by definition permanently outside of having evidential support.

    So I view the entire question of the existence of god to be undecidable, by its very nature completely outside of human knowledge, and, therefore, completely and hopelessly unimportant and meaningless.

    I think people should use their brainpower to figure out how to feed the poor and so on instead of arguing in loops over something unresolvable.

    So I guess I'm technically agnostic, but in practice an atheist. Philosophically I look up to people like Bertrand Russell a lot.

    Side note: there's a *HUGE* difference between absence of belief and belief in absence. Someone invariably tries to equate these when I have these sorts of conversations, but they're wrong.

    Also: I've never read a satisfying rebuttal towards the problem of evil. But I didn't mention it because I'm completely cool with the concept of god being either malevolent (would make sense) or otherwise incapable.

    And another aside: most people don't seem to understand that science isn't about absolute truth. I was debating someone who was making a big deal about the fact that the laws of gravity still aren't well understood, that they are subject to social construction, and the fact that there's no a priori reason to know with absolute certainty that common things like, say, dropping an apple will cause it to fall to the ground.

    While he may be technically right, I wondered if he was willing to demonstrate his enlightened ability to transcend his social conditioning of the laws of physics right off the top of a building. Of course he wouldn't, because if the action could be statistically quantified, it'd be a hideously stupid bet to take.

    That's how I view science -- a series of best bets derived from our limited understanding. Not absolute truth.
    You can't wait for inspiration. You have to go after it with a club. - Jack London

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