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  1. #381

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    I changed the way I process things for sure. Hard thing to do!

    Also most of the best run humanitarian campaigns have nothing to do with religion. I "think" they're better because they can focus on the real issues plaguing people instead of always doing things with the ulterior motive of converting people.

    I'm super tired right now and I am tired of thinking about reasons why I left my religion but you asked what logical reasons and I am sure an NT would be more helpful than me with logic since I just go with what I see and process and feel...
    -we know the speed of light. If the bible is the inherent word of God then you must believe in a literal 6 days, no other way around it. You take out that one truth and all the rest of it goes up for grabs. Either it's all true or it's not. That being said, it doesn't make logical sense that we are living in a 6,000 year old universe.
    -Tower of Babel - C'mon... really? I suppose god changed the color of everyone's skin then too eh?
    -the notion that an all powerful all knowing all supreme being would give a damn about an a colony of ants on one tiny planet.

    I can go with Victor's description of my coming out of christianity being a conversion experience for sure.

    That's the annoying thing about discussing religion with theists, you can't argue with them. They believe what they believe and that's all there is to it. It's been my experience that only through a time of self discovery can they free themselves from the bondage of faith and live without fear of god.

  2. #382
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by findthejake View Post
    Also most of the best run humanitarian campaigns have nothing to do with religion. I "think" they're better because they can focus on the real issues plaguing people instead of always doing things with the ulterior motive of converting people.
    I think that's quite a bit of a stretch. Charity work is one of areas of life in which the deeply religious really do a lot of good for society as a whole. Non-religious charities are great, too (and all of them are usually more efficient than the government), but in the United States, at least, the amount of charity and community outreach done by religious groups is staggering.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  3. #383
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Not every religious charity is out to make converts, either.
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  4. #384

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    Let's not go on the defensive here! I did put think in quotations to specify it was my feelings on the matter with the various religious npo's i've been involved with in the last 15 some years

  5. #385
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by findthejake View Post
    Let's not go on the defensive here! I did put think in quotations to specify it was my feelings on the matter with the various religious npo's i've been involved with in the last 15 some years
    Who's defensive? I'm just clarifying. Man, BlueWing has a point about that subjectivity crap.
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  6. #386

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    right... I'm sure he does.

    That being said I am glad I am free to think freely instead of being encompassed in a faith/religious box/worldview like so many of my old friends and even my family.

    Quickest way to become close-minded? Believing and defending your faith.

  7. #387
    desert pelican Owl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VanillaCat View Post
    What? I'm pretty sure there are people who are involved and truly care about other humans, who DON'T believe in god. We're made to suffer so we care about other people - who are suffering too? Why do we have to suffer in the first place then?! And if I'm suffering, how can I help them? Shouldn't I take care of myself before I'm even capable of taking care of them?
    Before you can love others, you must first love yourself; before you can seek the good for others, you must know what is good and work to increase the good in your life; for if you don't know what is good, how could you work to possess that which is good? And if you neither know nor possess that which is good, how could you share the good with others? And if you have nothing good to share with others, how could you love them?

    What if you thought you knew what is good, but you didn't, and therefore every choice you made and every end you strove to reach were not good? Wouldn't you like to know you were in error? And if you were in error, but you always got what you wanted--if you were always succesful in obtaining the ends for which you worked--then what would get you to stop and think that you might possibly be wrong about what you believed to be good?

    Quote Originally Posted by VanillaCat View Post
    I don't stop and think of God when I value things. In fact, I stopped believing in God because of "suffering." If I had never suffered, I probably would have always kept my faith. But suffering is what caused me to question it, coupled with unanswered prayers. Maybe in your mind what you say makes sense, but in MY mind, this has been my experience as I'm sure it has been radically different from yours.
    You're making my points for me. Suffering caused you to stop and think about what you believed about the nature of the real, and, upon questioning, you realized your faith was without substance. This realization then caused you to change your beliefs and to abondon your faith. Suffering helped you realize you were chasing a pipe dream, and this shows that the imposition of suffering is an act of mercy; for suffering is what causes us to stop, to ask questions, and to think--and it is through questioning and critical thinking that we come to know the truth.

    Quote Originally Posted by VanillaCat View Post
    And this is where the everyone's opinion is pointless. Because in our minds, we process things differently. Always. And this is why I don't like talking about religion, because you can't change how someone processes their thoughts.
    We all have opinions, but an opinion is not true because of who says it, but because of what is said. Even if we all process our thoughts differently, we all think, and thinking is the same in all persons. And we must obey the laws of thought if we are to avoid thinking nonsense.

    Quote Originally Posted by findthejake View Post
    I changed the way I process things for sure. Hard thing to do!

    I'm super tired right now and I am tired of thinking about reasons why I left my religion but you asked what logical reasons and I am sure an NT would be more helpful than me with logic since I just go with what I see and process and feel...
    -we know the speed of light. If the bible is the inherent word of God then you must believe in a literal 6 days, no other way around it. You take out that one truth and all the rest of it goes up for grabs. Either it's all true or it's not. That being said, it doesn't make logical sense that we are living in a 6,000 year old universe.
    -Tower of Babel - C'mon... really? I suppose god changed the color of everyone's skin then too eh?
    -the notion that an all powerful all knowing all supreme being would give a damn about an a colony of ants on one tiny planet.

    I can go with Victor's description of my coming out of christianity being a conversion experience for sure.

    That's the annoying thing about discussing religion with theists, you can't argue with them. They believe what they believe and that's all there is to it. It's been my experience that only through a time of self discovery can they free themselves from the bondage of faith and live without fear of god.
    Thanks Jake, (don't know if that's your name... but whatev.)

    I hope you don't mind my picking your brain. If you'd like to argue, I'd be more than willing to. And I assure you I won't say, "thus it is written!"

    I agree with Victor too. You did have a conversion experience. Much like Sunshine, you're now aware that the Christianity you grew up with didn't answer any of the basic questions--and so I also agree with you: there is no reason to believe any of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Not every religious charity is out to make converts, either.
    True. We're not called to make converts. We are called to be faithful witnesses.

  8. #388
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    Lol, and, ugh!!!

    `
    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

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  9. #389
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Default The Appetite for Conversion

    Quote Originally Posted by Owl View Post
    I agree with Victor too. You did have a conversion experience. Much like Sunshine.....
    Conversion can be profound. It can be exhausting. It can be uplifting and even enlightening. It can even leave us relaxed and refreshed. But however, it leaves you changed.

    But the important thing is not to let it leave you short-changed.

    It is only natural we should focus on the content of the conversion experience, after all we actually lived it and came up changed.

    And so our minds think about the content of the conversion while our emotions, our body and soul feel the change.

    So at this point it is most important to direct our attention away from the content of the conversion and develop a taste for conversion itself.

    Conversion can be applied to anything but being a limited human being we usually find we are following our own path. But each step on our path is now a conversion.

    And although we are fully immersed in the content of each conversion step, we have a taste for the next step, and the next and the next.

    And so we learn good taste as we trip lightly on our path through life.

  10. #390
    desert pelican Owl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainChick View Post
    Lol, and, ugh!!!

    [offensive image]
    Oh, hello. I was wondering if and when you'd pop back into this thread you started.

    I aplogize for kinda, sorta highjacking it.

    I hope you know that the Christian God hates what the guy in the pic above is doing. (Oh yeah, and those Klan guys a few pages back are stuck in some pretty gnarly sin too.)

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