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  1. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by sassafrassquatch View Post
    I've read Mere Christianity, it's full of logical fallacies and completely unconvincing to anyone who isn't already a christian.
    Did you read it with an open mind?

    It seems that you didnt. Given that you are making generalizations.

  2. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grayscale View Post
    i think that arguing over the existence of anything that exists, by definition, outside of our universe (in every sense of those words) is a lot like insisting on trying to build a house without concrete, wood, tools, etc.

    for there to be a point to it, first we'd need to find a way to gather evidence on the subject (impossible, by definition of the subject)... why everyone skips this step seems to suggest that it's more about arguing than actually proving anything.
    I think people have a hard time being self-aware enough to become aware of others let alone are capable in figuring or coming to a good understanding on whether there are deities or there aren't. Or knowing that it shouldn't be defined with the terms that people are familar with. And who claims by definition that this existence is "outside" of our universe? You've defined it as such but surely not all think the same. Some will say that's the problem, that people view it outside of "us" and our realities. And why is it impossible to gather evidence on the subject? We haven't figured it out yet. Perhaps, at our point of evolution, we aren't capable of figuring it out. Or maybe there are those who have? There are those who are currently trying to prove it (and I don't mean religious people- or well, they are too but I don't trust it though I'm aware of what they claim, new or old or adopted or re-packaged)

    Quantum Physics might help but it'll depend on how you define the subject. As "conciousness"? Really though, I think that the argument isn't just about the lack of "existence". It's about the lack of evidence or about the conflicting evidence which is used to proof this existence. It's also how we define our existence. We also can't even begin to make steps towards anything because there is a much larger collective out to prevent it from happening. How often is science rejected by the religious community on grounds of "it's not moral" or "it's against god/church/etc" and so on? Years pass and some scientific info become accepted by overal religious people (like of medicine. "We need it NOW, so let's change our minds and try it out and pray that it works!")- People who are religious are often taking the POV of people from the past without understanding the mentalities of those people being different than they are currently. Those ancient people were subjectively molded by their objective existences as we are now. What's to gain by taking that old POV? You can only be subjective because you can't go back and look at their objective surroundings, you can only subjectively take from you current objective surroundings. You can learn from the past, sure-- you can look at whatever objective material has remained but has been altered over time and understand from it if you're open to but to remain objective that you can only partially understand or derive your own meanings from it. Nothing is kept perfectly, all things erode and change over time or are changed deliberately to suit new people. But to keep that old ancient understanding is to limit new understandings. I'd even say people who are atheists can be trapped by the past too because they've only experienced the BS of religion or the hypocrits or hypocrisies of it. It's likely that people who remain open and relinquish their "box" can experience existence differently and define (or refuse to define) how they experience "god" (w/o calling it such a thing).

    And people here are discussing for their own benefit. If something is gained, fine. If not, their choice (or those religious others who stumble in here by their own choosing and get bitten). I wonder if I'll get bitten too

  3. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dana View Post
    Omg.. what is that? ^
    Enos (chimpanzee) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    `
    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

    Veritatem dies aperit

    Ride si sapis

    Intelligentle sparkles

  4. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFeeVerte View Post
    Did you read it with an open mind?
    He could ask the same of you. Anyhoo, sass used to be a devout religious person most of his life. It's not something he likely got rid of easily. (sass, correct me if I'm wrong. I recall something like that lol)

  5. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeliriousDisposition View Post
    He could ask the same of you. Anyhoo, sass used to be a devout religious person most of his life. It's not something he likely got rid of easily. (sass, correct me if I'm wrong. I recall something like that lol)
    I used to be a hardcore atheist.

  6. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainChick View Post
    Oy vey, have you even read the thread???

    For starters, my posts on page one and two should help aid you in understanding what can be "gained" by this thread.

    And no, it is not "like trying to build a house without concrete, wood, tools, etc."

    It is a way for like-minded individuals to connect and share their thoughts and opinions on this particular subject matter.
    im not referring to this thread, im referring to the topic in general. ie, im taking participation in this thread by asking for clarification on the subject where i dont have it.

    basically, i dont understand how people discuss the existence of the metaphysical. how are suppositions formed when there ultimately is no "if" to put before the "then"?

    this goes against my style of thinking, so i want to learn more about the how and why behind the thinking of people who are capable of participating, considering i have a difficult time doing the same. it is something i often wonder about, any insight would be appreciated...

    Quote Originally Posted by DeliriousDisposition View Post
    And who claims by definition that this existence is "outside" of our universe?
    maybe this is where im feeling disconnected... i figure that if there were such an entity, it would need to be outside the plane of existence of whatever it were to create

    Quote Originally Posted by DeliriousDisposition View Post
    And people here are discussing for their own benefit. If something is gained, fine. If not, their choice (or those religious others who stumble in here by their own choosing and get bitten). I wonder if I'll get bitten too
    right... again not really referring to this thread, just the argument in general. this seemed like a good opportunity to bring up my questions. it would make sense that everyone gets something out of it, i am trying to understand what and why

  7. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFeeVerte View Post
    I used to be a hardcore atheist.
    That doesn't tell me much. You asked him if he read it with an open mind. I said that he could ask the same of you. You being a former hardcore atheist doesn't mean, or tell me, you were open minded about it when reading it.

    People change POVs but that doesn't mean they've become 'open'. It just notes that they've changed.

  8. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaFeeVerte View Post
    Did you read it with an open mind?

    It seems that you didnt. Given that you are making generalizations.
    I read it when I was a Christian and at the time thought it was very convincing.

  9. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeliriousDisposition View Post
    He could ask the same of you. Anyhoo, sass used to be a devout religious person most of his life. It's not something he likely got rid of easily. (sass, correct me if I'm wrong. I recall something like that lol)
    Yeh, he posted a reply to me about it on this thread.

  10. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeliriousDisposition View Post
    That doesn't tell me much. You asked him if he read it with an open mind. I said that he could ask the same of you. You being a former hardcore atheist doesn't mean, or tell me, you were open minded about it when reading it.

    People change POVs but that doesn't mean they've become 'open'. It just notes that they've changed.
    I was very open minded when I read it. I wasnt a christian before I read it. One of my family members recommended it to me and I was very reluctant about reading it. I thought it was going to be another book written by a hardcore christian trying to press their beliefs on you. But it wasnt. C.S. Lewis did a wonderful job presenting the facts as they were and putting his insights on them. After I read that book, I couldnt honestly say that a God didnt exist. But that is only my experience with it. I'll leave it up to people to read it and make their opinions about it.

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