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Thread: Random Thought Thread

  1. #62881
    He pronks, too! Array Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erm View Post
    There's probably a name for this specific bias, but it's basically a subset of the overconfidence cognitive bias. If you start to think you're really intelligence you become less critical of your thoughts and thus less intelligent, and if you start to think you're very virtuous you become less critical of your behavior.

    The amount of "I'm rational, therefore what I'm claiming is rational" I see is immense, especially the type where people use superficial associations with rationality, like flat affect, to boost that sense that they're rational. I think people do similar a similar things with virtue signaling and get a false sense of reward for being virtuous out of it.

    Obviously I now have to own up to doing all these things otherwise I start to look stupid and immoral
    Yes, I think you're right. It is something like that. After thinking of this, I kind of moved on to wondering how that state of self-righteousness emerges. This process requires that one identifies themselves as doing or being right. One does not necessarily assume that they are what they want to be, or that they succeed at what they are trying to do, so merely aspiring to rightness wouldn't necessarily make someone think they are. Presumably, the factors involved are numerous and it would be pretty hard to work out.


    Quote Originally Posted by erm View Post
    I'm pretty sure he's talking relatively. Someone becomes an ignorant asshole by their own standards, or whatever group standards they're trying to follow. It works on any scale.

    At least his point works relatively, even if he didn't mean it that way.

    I'm glad you said this. It is a part of what I was going to say to @uumlau. I think this will hold true pretty much regardless of what you believe is moral. The first part is, like I said, practically a tautology. The second point is that self-righteousness basically impairs, as erm was saying, meta-cognitive abilities. I think when people get the idea they are in the right, it's kind of like a mandate to do what they are doing. What they are doing is good, what poses an obstacle to what they are doing is bad. One thing that would be an obstacle, is a person trying to inform you that you are mistaken. So that person's commentary will be rejected. And I think it suffices to say that no matter what you think is good, your ability be good (or good at any thing for that matter) is impaired by a refusal to process input. No matter what you think is good, if you already think you're doing it, and process no further information on what you are doing, it's going to limit your capacity to do it.
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  2. #62882
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Morality is not monolithic. Moral dilemmas exist for this very reason: one is forced to weigh one good vs another. More specifically, there is much more to morality than being good and kind and fair, or "contributing to humanity" as you might put it. It is very possible that those to whom you would ascribe the phrase "ignorant asshole" are following a part of morality of which you are ignorant, and just because they aren't doing that small subset of things that you describe as moral, you believe that they are essentially immoral.

    Your perspective would appear to derive from Kant's, so it has a strong pedigree, but Kant's approach is inherently flawed, as he reasons in terms of having an overall abstract monolithic morality, as opposed to how humans actually live and express their morality. Morality doesn't derive from reason; the reverse would in fact appear to be closer to the truth.
    People are so quick to judge based on shallow immediate feelings they dont see the person in front of them...both judge good and bad.
    Take what I say with a grain of salt, because that's all it is compared to the ocean of complexity when it comes to actions and real life.
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  3. #62883
    He pronks, too! Array Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    You know @erm, to further build on that, at risk of consuming the random thought thread, I think the reason I started with morality in the first place is because of its penchant for such biases. People can accept that they are not competent at something, they can let go of a fact that they were wrong about. The bias isn't always there. But I think it is very probably the case that issues, once framed as moral issue, are far more likely to be subject to this kind of bias, and that's what ties this apparently more general topic in with the discussion of morality.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  4. #62884
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Yes, I think you're right. It is something like that. After thinking of this, I kind of moved on to wondering how that state of self-righteousness emerges. This process requires that one identifies themselves as doing or being right. One does not necessarily assume that they are what they want to be, or that they succeed at what they are trying to do, so merely aspiring to rightness wouldn't necessarily make someone think they are. Presumably, the factors involved are numerous and it would be pretty hard to work out.
    Yeah it's a chaos of factors involved that's quite resistant to analysis. Lack of confidence can cause someone to strive less for what they perceive as good, for example, which would make them less righteous, so confidence that counters that would actually increase their chances of doing good.

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    You know erm, to further build on that, at risk of consuming the random thought thread, I think the reason I started with morality in the first place is because of its penchant for such biases. People can accept that they are not competent at something, they can let go of a fact that they were wrong about. The bias isn't always there. But I think it is very probably the case that issues, once framed as moral issue, are far more likely to be subject to this kind of bias, and that's what ties this apparently more general topic in with the discussion of morality.
    I think the two major forms of feedback for moral issues are your own thoughts/feelings and society's pressures/responses/frames of reference. Since people mimic society those two end up being similar in nature, and they both provide support for a bias like this because they are arbitrary and self-referential. You're own overconfidence is likely strengthened by the positive feedback you get from actions because of your own overconfidence that are also caused by your overconfidence, and so it cycles. The same goes for a society's overconfidence to some extent. Because that cycle is arbitrary it can roll off in any particular direction dependent on the individual and society, and so it's a process that's going to happen in any particular environment, and be very prominent because of it.

    Intelligence is a great contrast, for whilst there are many areas where the feedback suffers similar problems (complex systems and subjective judgements), there are also areas that have very concrete, external, and quick feedback. Math is an extreme example of those latter qualities, where a false self-perception of expertise is much rarer because of it.

  5. #62885
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  6. #62886
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    Gosh enneagram is so dark. Reading about anything other than healthy 3's makes me so sick, like it's an explanation of serial killers. Blech.

    Riso and Hudson on their book Personality Types keeps saying narcissism over and over lol.

    Yeah guys don't be a 3. You too other INFJ's go be a 7 or an 8 for your unicorn special rarity.

    There are probably more INFJ INTJ INFP and INTP 3's out there. It's amazing that many of the 5's for the NT's may not be 5's after all.
    The vanity or admiration driven sounds very far from an NF or NT type but those who don't introspect themselves far enough may find something different about them.
    [Interviewer: "What was it like to be defined by being beautiful?"]
    Connelly: "It's uncomfortable to talk about - there's no way to come off right! If you say you are beautiful, you sound obnoxious, and if you deny it, doesn't that sound obnoxious?"
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  7. #62887
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    I swear my ex doesnt think much. My son got the flu last saturday and since i had him the week before and the weekend he got sick i just kept him this week so he just "contaminates" one household. So since i have had him for 2 weeks i made the suggestion she can have him for 2 weeks or we can just do a week and a half each and that puts back on schedule. She responded week and a half just sounds confusing, so what she recomends instead is she has him this week, i have him half of next week, then she gets him last half of that week, then i get him the next week as scheduled...because that sounds so much less confusing i swear she talks out of her ass.
    Take what I say with a grain of salt, because that's all it is compared to the ocean of complexity when it comes to actions and real life.

  8. #62888
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forever View Post
    Gosh enneagram is so dark. Reading about anything other than healthy 3's makes me so sick, like it's an explanation of serial killers. Blech.

    Riso and Hudson on their book Personality Types keeps saying narcissism over and over lol.

    Yeah guys don't be a 3. You too other INFJ's go be a 7 or an 8 for your unicorn special rarity.

    There are probably more INFJ INTJ INFP and INTP 3's out there. It's amazing that many of the 5's for the NT's may not be 5's after all.
    The vanity or admiration driven sounds very far from an NF or NT type but those who don't introspect themselves far enough may find something different about them.
    I agree w/r to lots of NTs not really being 5's. The personality description of a 5 reads like an NT, but that isn't what a 5 really is. A five is obsessive-compulsive about understanding their favorite subject matter. For instance, it doesn't have to be computers or science, but it could be about trains or the history of rock music or geography or climatology. (These are real-life examples from my personal experience, btw, none of whom are NTs.)

    As for being depressing, yeah Enneagram kind of sucks that way, once you start understanding it correctly. No, being a 3 doesn't make you a narcissist, but it means that if things start happening such that you cope badly, your tendencies will be kind of narcissistic. Each of the types is a coping mechanism, and the only real problems occur when you just blindly cope with whatever using that same typological strategy even when it doesn't make sense. And a lot of the emphasis is on "blindly": until it gets pointed out, you're probably not going to see it in yourself, and sometimes not even then!
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.
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  9. #62889
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forever View Post
    Gosh enneagram is so dark. Reading about anything other than healthy 3's makes me so sick, like it's an explanation of serial killers. Blech.

    Riso and Hudson on their book Personality Types keeps saying narcissism over and over lol.

    Yeah guys don't be a 3. You too other INFJ's go be a 7 or an 8 for your unicorn special rarity.

    There are probably more INFJ INTJ INFP and INTP 3's out there. It's amazing that many of the 5's for the NT's may not be 5's after all.
    The vanity or admiration driven sounds very far from an NF or NT type but those who don't introspect themselves far enough may find something different about them.
    -
    Hahaha dude, I typed as 5 for awhile because I admired 5-like traits.

  10. #62890
    sense and nonsense Array Ghost's Avatar
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