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  1. #1
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Default Simulated Hijacks Thread to do Experiment! Millions of NFs Outraged!

    Quote Originally Posted by Lauren Ashley View Post
    Maybe. The consistent lack of understanding of the motivations of these types, and lack of perspective in general, would indicate quite otherwise.

    The post wasn't so much offensive as it was overly judgmental and censuring due to the aforementioned lack of understanding.
    Really? Sure you're not taking it a little too personally?

    I find it telling that NFs are all about broad generalizations to describe patterns until those generalizations are pointed at them--then it's an attack on their individuality.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

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    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rainoneventide View Post
    What's wrong with taking something personally...? It sucks when someone thinks an opinion of yours is offending, but when you're offended that someone else is offended, then maybe you should reconsider expressing your brilliant opinion, next time.

    This sort of thing just pisses me off because you're basically saying, "Suck it up, you shouldn't be offended, pussy." Except with fancier rhetoric that makes you look wise.
    Nothing is inherently wrong with taking things personally; in fact, many things should be taken very personally. It's all context-dependent.

    The problem is that NFPs especially (and to a lesser extent NFJs and sometimes SFs) don't know where to draw the line between personal and impersonal. The mature ones recognize when their natural feeling response isn't appropriate and are able to separate themselves from the situation and make a more objective decision--this is very important in many situations.

    I'm not going to reconsider shit in terms of expressing my brilliant opinion--maybe you should buy shampoo with "no more tears" so we can start working with you like reasonable adults instead of high functioning children who can't understand why objective criticism is sometimes necessary. Of course it's possible to be too insensitive and many people (usually Ts) are; again it's a balance, but I really can't accept the idea that feelings should always govern 100% of interactions and that if I hurt anyone's feelings I'm automatically wrong. The fact is, some people are too sensitive, and that's life.

    Granted, strong Ts often have the opposite problem in terms of never knowing when things should be approached from a personal standpoint, but for the love of God, there is a fucking line--I'm really sorry here, but I'm not going to bend over backwards and walk on eggshells all the time because some people are too childish to handle honesty.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  3. #3
    RETIRED CzeCze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Nothing is inherently wrong with taking things personally; in fact, many things should be taken very personally. It's all context-dependent.
    Everything's subjective.

    I bet you hate hearing that!

    The problem is that NFPs especially (and to a lesser extent NFJs and sometimes SFs) don't know where to draw the line between personal and impersonal.
    I take that personally!!!

    Take it back!!!

    TAKE IT BACK!?!??!

    :steam:

    The mature ones recognize when their natural feeling response isn't appropriate
    In more seriousness, my 'natural response' is always appropriate - to me. Just like your natural response is appropriate - to you.

    Where 'context appropriate' comes in is what do you do after your natural response kick in.

    Do you dig in your heels and say, "WELL THAT'S JUST ME! TAKE IT OR LEAVE IT!"

    Or do you take your natural reaction and take that as just one factor in the larger picture?

    Feelings don't have to be invalidated or excused, they exist side by side with all the other intellectual reasoning and decision making we do. And are often part of that process.

    and are able to separate themselves from the situation and make a more objective decision--this is very important in many situations.
    I wouldn't articulate it as 'separating themselves from the situation' but just being able to look at the situation more objectively. Ne actually does help with that, you know.

    Because we're always a part of our own personal situations.

    Of course it's possible to be too insensitive to othersand many people (usually Ts) are;
    Fixed!

    again it's a balance, but I really can't accept the idea that feelings should always govern 100% of interactions and that if I hurt anyone's feelings I'm automatically wrong.
    I don't necessarily think that's what people who even acknowledge that they are very sensitive mean. Does anyone who's written on this thread so far think that feelings should always 100% govern interactions?

    I think a lot of people who are sensitive (and I include ENTPs here) can be hurt when something dear to them - their idea, their performance, their character - is criticized. But, it's possible to be hurt by the delivery of the message as well as hurt by the message itself.
    Or the larger context of the message given the timing and other things going on.

    The fact is, some people are too sensitive, and that's life.
    Umm...and you're just 'too insensitive' period so that means you are gonna continually go through life pissing off and hurting people who are too sensitive? And then complaining how it wasn't your fault, that person was just too sensitive?

    That sounds kinda, I dunno tiring? LOL And aren't you a little young to be giving up on whole swaths of the population? And yourself? I think you need to get fired from at least one long term job, get two divorces under your belt, and disowned by 1 family member before you start giving up on people in general.

    Granted, strong Ts often have the opposite problem in terms of never knowing when things should be approached from a personal standpoint
    Ha, I disagree, hard. I think XNTPs often don't realize how personally they are taking things and subjectively they are approaching a situation or person. That's a big problem.

    More than the challenges of dealing with someone who is "sensitive" or even "hypersensitive" - to deal with someone who is hypersensitive or being defensive but doesn't even realize it and denies it.

    I think THAT is a challenge and the point where communication breaks down.

    (And that happens regardless of MBT types.)
    “If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.” ― Oscar Wilde

    "I'm outtie 5000" ― Romulux

    Johari/Nohari

  4. #4
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    Everything's subjective.

    I bet you hate hearing that! :laugh
    No, not really--since studying MBTI I've learned a lot about Ni and my own weaknesses as a P type, and I've made great strides in stopping the nasty habit of holding others to my arbitrary logical standards--it's always a work in progress, but the way I see it it doesn't matter where on the ladder you are, only which direction you're moving.



    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    In more seriousness, my 'natural response' is always appropriate - to me. Just like your natural response is appropriate - to you.

    Where 'context appropriate' comes in is what do you do after your natural response kick in.

    Do you dig in your heels and say, "WELL THAT'S JUST ME! TAKE IT OR LEAVE IT!"

    Or do you take your natural reaction and take that as just one factor in the larger picture?

    Feelings don't have to be invalidated or excused, they exist side by side with all the other intellectual reasoning and decision making we do. And are often part of that process.
    So are you just writing a long-winded "I agree" here, or did my post sound like I disagree with any of this?



    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    I wouldn't articulate it as 'separating themselves from the situation' but just being able to look at the situation more objectively. Ne actually does help with that, you know.

    Because we're always a part of our own personal situations.
    I don't really want to play semantics.



    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    I don't necessarily think that's what people who even acknowledge that they are very sensitive mean. Does anyone who's written on this thread so far think that feelings should always 100% govern interactions?
    Good question!

    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    I think a lot of people who are sensitive (and I include ENTPs here) can be hurt when something dear to them - their idea, their performance, their character - is criticized. But, it's possible to be hurt by the delivery of the message as well as hurt by the message itself.
    Or the larger context of the message given the timing and other things going on.
    That's true.



    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    Umm...and you're just 'too insensitive' period so that means you are gonna continually go through life pissing off and hurting people who are too sensitive? And then complaining how it wasn't your fault, that person was just too sensitive?
    No, the thing is I'm actually fairly moderate for a T. I've had numerous people on this board tell me they actually think I'm an F.

    Sometimes it's my fault; sometimes it's not. It's a tough line to draw, but there are lines. There's a certain reasonable standard of personal courtesy that can generally be expected, and anybody who expects much more than that/gets upset when people don't live up to it is being too sensitive.

    For instance: There is an Orthodox Muslim at your place of employment. He politely explains that in his culture, women showing their hair is very offensive and makes him personally very upset, so he requests that all the women in the office cover their hair in his presence.

    So if you refuse, are you being unreasonable just because his feelings have been hurt? As an exaggerated example, if this Muslim were a really immature INFP he might decide you're all complete assholes for clearly failing to respect his feelings.

    It's precisely the same thing as when NTPs run around yelling at everyone for not being logical enough. NTPs pride themselves on their strong faculties of impersonal reasoning, and so they make a mistake when they expect everyone else to meet that same standard--they are the experts so they think everyone else should be.

    NFPs are typically experts on how to behave and think most ethically, and they do the same thing by holding others to unrealistic standards in this area simply because they are really good at it and this somehow leads them to believe everyone should be just as good as they are. (Fi and Ti are the same thing, honestly. These days I try to artificially push my internal perspective more toward Ni whenever I can because it's much more flexible.)

    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    That sounds kinda, I dunno tiring? LOL And aren't you a little young to be giving up on whole swaths of the population? And yourself? I think you need to get fired from at least one long term job, get two divorces under your belt, and disowned by 1 family member before you start giving up on people in general.
    I don't really have any idea what you're talking about here.



    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    Ha, I disagree, hard. I think XNTPs often don't realize how personally they are taking things and subjectively they are approaching a situation or person. That's a big problem.
    Actually, no, it's your problem for repeatedly misinterpreting this situation 99% of the time it comes up and apparently being so certain that your "feeling read" on others is always correct that you've managed to bury yourselves in some pretty deep denial on this one. Doesn't it strike you as a bit odd that zero NTs agree with you about this, and that NFs are the only people who seem to believe it?

    NTs mainly get irritated and a bit terse when you don't follow their "logical" thought processes (which may or may not actually be logical in reality.) This is not the same thing as getting emotional, and it's insulting and condescending that you refuse to accept our own explanations of our perspectives because apparently you know us better than we do, and somehow you fail to realize how ridiculously inappropriate that is.

    You turn the "OMG U R UPSET" thing into a self-fulfilling prophecy because your insistence that we are responding emotionally when we are not pisses us off to the point of actually becoming emotional--Fi likes to poke people it sees as inconsistent just as much as Ti; it's just more clever about masking it with rainbows and emoticons. NFPs are masters of the passive aggressive subtly insulting implication+deer in the headlights when someone responds negatively. ("OMG HERE I WAS JUST SHARING FRIENDLY CONVERSATION AND HE RANDOMLY ATTACKED ME FOR NO REASON!! EVERYBODY LOOK WHAT AN ASSHOLE I'VE MADE HIM APPEAR!")

    But of course I'm sure you wouldn't know anything about that, now would you?

    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    More than the challenges of dealing with someone who is "sensitive" or even "hypersensitive" - to deal with someone who is hypersensitive or being defensive but doesn't even realize it and denies it.

    I think THAT is a challenge and the point where communication breaks down.

    (And that happens regardless of MBT types.)
    I'm not saying that NTs never get emotional--obviously we do; it's just that our ranges of emotion are much smaller than yours and we don't attach the same emotional value to language that you do, and you guys really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really need to stop projecting "WELL I WOULD HAVE TO BE REALLY UPSET TO SAY THOSE THINGS SO OBVIOUSLY U ARE LOL" onto us, because I think I speak for most Ts when I say we're pretty fucking sick of your crap.

    Here's a great example in the very paragraph above--you probably think that sounds overtly emotional. NTPs in particular enjoy exaggerating and using colorful wordings and tones because they tend to feel that exaggeration is an effective tool in illustrating their points, NOT BECAUSE THEY ARE CRYING ON THE INSIDE. In actuality I'm merely annoyed at a perceived logical inconsistency, not having an episode of raging bipolar disorder, but feel free to pretend my words mean whatever you've arbitrarily decided they mean.

    You're the expert on my feelings, after all.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  5. #5
    heart on fire
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    I think I speak for most Ts when I say we're pretty fucking sick of your crap...
    You know what they say about that screen door.

  6. #6
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    ^ Yeah yeah, I'm sure you're sick of us too.

    But in my experience, the worst NTs will do is try to use your position on one issue to infer your positions on others (e.g., "Wow if you think THAT, then must ALSO believe..."), which is not always warranted, but I feel it's a far cry from openly insisting that you can experience another person's perspective more accurately than he can. That, to me, would seem to be the very definition of arrogance.

    If you respond with an explanation as to why your beliefs don't work that way and can back it up in a way that doesn't contradict itself, generally NTs will stop trying to tell you what it is that you think (which I am sure is just as annoying as you dictating our feelings to us.)

    They may continue to argue with you a lot and arrogantly insist that your position is illogical, but they rarely if ever claim better command of your own perception than you have!

    That is the biggest issue, and something that I usually only see coming from NFs. "No, let me tell YOU how you feel!"

    Do you see the difference here? If you say you believe that the Dude is a hippie and that all hippies abide, we're probably not going to let it slide if you then go on to say that you don't believe the Dude abides. That's not really arguable.

    But what I can't understand is why you think you have better command of something as subjective and personal as another person's feelings than that person does--how exactly do NTs match this level of sheer hubris, from your perspective?

    Maybe this is just T bias, but I feel that many of the things Ts consider to be "objective" actually are a lot more empirically verifiable than the things Fs consider to be objective. There's a difference between correcting an explicit mistake in reasoning based on clearly predefined conditions (as in the hippies example above) and going right off the deep end and declaring that your knowledge of my emotional makeup > greater than mine.

    That's going to piss anybody off regardless of personality type, and sometimes I wonder if you guys intentionally push us to that point just to see where we'll break so that you can "prove" how we're all really just little 5 year old Feelers on the inside because you resent us for not seeing the world in the emotional terms that you do. We're not; get over it.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  7. #7
    heart on fire
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Do you see the difference here?
    No. It's all semantics.

    But mind the door on your way out. TY.

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    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    No. It's all semantics.

    But mind the door on your way out. TY.
    So...you'd agree then that the following two statements are equally reasonable?

    1) If you believe that all As are Bs and that JimBob is an A, you must also believe that JimBob is a B.

    2) I'm certain that I know how you're feeling far more accurately than you do, so don't argue with me.


    ...I mean really? No difference at all there? None?

    #1 defines presupposed conditions and then uses impersonal reasoning to extrapolate further conclusions. If we were to say, "I know because I said so that JimBob is an A, no matter what JimBob thinks about it" then we'd lose the rationality, see? Note that statement #1 never claims any objective truth without first defining its own conditions and creating a closed rule system.

    #2 defines no presupposed conditions and simply arbitrarily decides it's universally right with no real evidence or verification. This is really the same thing to you?
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

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    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    I'll tell you, Heart, I'm going to be vaguely annoyed that I wasted my time trying to describe this concept if you simply shrug it off with no attempt at a coherent response.

    And then you'll probably decide that vague annoyance = OMG SCREAMING CRAZY MAD UPSET, and then we'll start all over again.

    sigh.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  10. #10
    Senior Member SciVo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Here's a great example in the very paragraph above--you probably think that sounds overtly emotional. NTPs in particular enjoy exaggerating and using colorful wordings and tones because they tend to feel that exaggeration is an effective tool in illustrating their points, NOT BECAUSE THEY ARE CRYING ON THE INSIDE. In actuality I'm merely annoyed at a perceived logical inconsistency, not having an episode of raging bipolar disorder, but feel free to pretend my words mean whatever you've arbitrarily decided they mean.

    You're the expert on my feelings, after all.
    Dude. When you emote like a scenery-chewer, I'm going to take that to mean that you're freaking out. That's perception, not projection, and to resent it is ridiculous. If you don't want to be perceived as having strong feelings, then there's a very simple solution: don't act that way.
    INFP ~ Fi/Ne/Ni/Te ~ 9-2-4 sp/so

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