User Tag List

First 7891011 Last

Results 81 to 90 of 145

  1. #81
    resonance entropie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    MBTI
    entp
    Enneagram
    783
    Posts
    16,761

    Default

    Hmhm, but isnt there a lot of personal opinion swinging with it, if you interpret it that way. I mean a N is still a consonant
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  2. #82
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Enneagram
    7w6 sx/so
    Socionics
    ILE
    Posts
    5,554

    Default

    Maybe, I dunno.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  3. #83
    resonance entropie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    MBTI
    entp
    Enneagram
    783
    Posts
    16,761

    Default

    It does feel wrong, I am gonna meditate about it
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  4. #84
    meat popsicle r.a's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    MBTI
    STFU
    Posts
    496

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Really? Sure you're not taking it a little too personally?

    I find it telling that NFs are all about broad generalizations to describe patterns until those generalizations are pointed at them--then it's an attack on their individuality.
    ouch.

    but seriously, my broad generalizations are GOLD.
    "All authority of any kind, especially in the field of thought and understanding, is destructive and evil. Leaders destroy the followers and the followers destroy the leaders. You have to be your own teacher and your own disciple. You have to question everything that man has accepted as valuable, as necessary."
    -
    J.Krishnamurti

  5. #85
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    4,909

    Default



    When you remember the ENTPs, and you will, be kind.

  6. #86
    Senior Member Wild horses's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    MBTI
    ENFP
    Posts
    1,917

    Default

    I rarely take thing persoannly, even when I should LOL! And I absolutely agree with the OP. In fact I would never use keeping the peace as a barometer for rightness! Sometimes in order to do the morally right thing you must hurt the feelings of others. And I do agree that feelings shouldn't be the secret police of every conversation, acting as a form of unsaid censorship. That is just plain silliness. The only thing I think is a little bit tactless is when feelings are hurt for the sake of it and lets face it many express so called opinions just to provoke a reaction for a certain sector
    ... couldn't drag me away

    Željko Ražnatovic: argus
    Željko Ražnatovic: do you want heir's?
    WildHorses: HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
    Željko Ražnatovic: to carry your genealogical code??

  7. #87
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    4w5 sp/sx
    Socionics
    IEI Ni
    Posts
    7,661

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    I don't think these are quite the same thing--Austen and other authors are clearly writing fictional characters with real emotional motivations as defined by the author who created them.

    Granted, there are standards for how certain characters are implied to be showing certain emotions, but those are all based on the author's prior knowledge of what audience is going to be reading the work and how those people are likely to interpret all the words and actions of their characters...don't you think INFPs and similar types are part of the target audience of many such novels? Of course they'll be written in language that you can identify with. (This sort of Ni-based insight is something I think Fi/Ti tends to neglect in favor of attempting to objectively universalize its own perspective.)
    IRL, you are the author of your words, and unless you are a child, you have prior knowledge of society's communication standards. It is merely an excuse for poor communication and social skills.

    I don't think all novelists target an audience, particularly good ones. People who target an audience are writing for mostly money....but that's an unrelated tangent.


    Sure, but what's "implied" requires an actual attempt at implication on the part of the speaker; otherwise you're making a mistake by holding us to arbitrary standards about what words and action should imply what motivations.

    It's not unreasonable to make these intuitive guesses in the first place; we all do that--what's unreasonable is to continue clinging to them long after the speaker has corrected you on his own motivation, and it makes it even worse if you refuse to admit that you were wrong (the problem is many Fi-ers don't even realize how wrong they often are about this, instead insisting to themselves and others that the person must be in denial. How obnoxious.)
    No, certain behavior and words carry implications in society, as I said before. If it is a case of misunderstanding, to continue to insist would be obnoxious, but so is continuing to use an ineffective communication style and then blaming everyone else when you're constantly misinterpreted.

    Notice how you see a number of reactionary threads from NTs with titles such as "Why NFs still don't understand NTs", and so on? Threads like this where NTs make a specific effort to explain why you so frequently misinterpret our words and actions?

    Notice also how you never see threads where NTs make sure to assert that SPs or SJs don't understand them? This is because SPs and SJs don't run around asserting that they understand our perspectives better than we do. That's what needs to stop.
    NFs will stop presuming your emotion when you NTs stop disregarding our ethical viewpoints and assuming you know our reasoning and generally stop being meanies? Deal? Draw up a contract, schedule a meeting, and we'll all sign.

    Yes, have you ever watched an NT rant in person?

    Pull up a George Carlin sketch on youtube about some trivial concept--he screams and exaggerates and freaks out over all kinds of things, but no matter how big (like say, PTSD) or how small (like say, Mickey Mouse's birthday being announced on the television news), he still seems to be ludicrously upset about it, and you have to wonder why.

    Until, of course, you realize that that's part of his style and it's intended to grab attention/use hyperbole to illustrate a point, not pour his heart out to the audience about how deeply upset he is. It's far more calculated and far less "from the heart" than you think.
    In a serious, non-performance, non-joking manner? Not really. Most NTs I know personally (and I've known/dated a LOT) stay in the realm of mildly pleased to mildly irritated. Not to say they never blow a fuse, drop a tear, or become ecstatic, but it's not their everyday manner.

    George Carlin is an entertainer and he is acting. If he was having a serious discussion and not trying to make people laugh, then I suspect he might not take on a comical exaggeration. I don't think NFs are interpreting soft emotion when an NT is merely employing "angry humor". I have yet to see that. Also, if an NT is employing humor in that manner when having a serious discussion, then again, some serious work on the social skills is needed (refer back to "the appropriate time and place").

    The phrases "rant" and "freak out" connote a lot of emotion though. Emotion doesn't have to be soft and from the heart. Emotion includes anger, irritation, frustration and excitement. It seems NTs also have a different idea of what emotion is...it's not all weepy and weak. Again, if you're not feeling anything strong, but you behave like you are, then why blame the audience for misinterpreting?


    We do answer; in fact, it just makes us extraordinarily frustrated because as Ns you have a habit of engaging us in debates about topics we find fascinating (this is our favorite pastime and very very important to us) and we find it totally ridiculous when you sidetrack a productive debate/exchange of ideas in order to lecture us like 6 year olds about how our personal courtesy problems. When we're in the middle of exploring ideas/debating, we really don't particularly care about your ethics critiques, and moreover, it's irritating that you've SHOWN that you are capable of discussing these ideas intelligently (N) and then chosen not to so that you can go on an ethics rant (F).

    Seriously, most of us don't even care enough to bother asking why you do this. It's not because we're deeply upset and deeply in denial about it; we just don't care.

    I might offer you the same advice--there's a time and a place, and you're going to piss off Thinkers (especially NTs) when you sidetrack what they see as productive discussion to complain about their poor performance in an area that rarely ever even factors into their thinking.

    It's not as bad with SFs because most of them don't really grasp or care about the intuitive theory stuff that we so enjoy discussing--with you, it's kind of like we expect you to know better than to expect us to notice or care.

    So wait, now we're supposed to read your mind as to what you "care" about, but you get mad when we try and read it incorrectly?

    The problem here is for an NF, ethics are not separate from anything. They are the core of everything. If I bring up ethics in a discussion, it is because it is very relevant to the matter in my eyes. Often times, I want to shake NTs when they put their logic blinders on and refuse to see things from a human standpoint, which includes ethics and emotions. NFs arguments will almost always be colored and broadened by ethics, because the black and white logic realm is too stark and narrow to be representative of reality for us. The NT approach can seem unintelligent, because it's often cutting out a part of the whole picture.

    Dismissing someone's viewpoint as irrelevant because it includes ethics is another NT grievance to add to the list.

    As for actual tangents, all intuitive are guilty of tangents that make people around them smack their heads. I think the only people who really have a right to complain about tangents are sensors (but then they have their own sensor way of steering conversations also).


    but often I feel that INFPs in my life make no effort whatsoever to grow out of overdependence on Fi, so it's even worse because it feels like I'm at least trying and they're not even bothering.
    I'm really surprised at this. INFPs are so big on self-improvement and we are very self-critical because of our high ideals. I have heard INFPs talk about the Fi-Si loop (withdrawing from the world and not using Ne) in which the INFP has given up all hope on everything and themselves; time to go on suicide watch then...

    On the other hand, we're introverts, and much of our workings stay hidden. For all you know, these INFPs are kicking themselves all the time and trying to get past bad habits.



    I see; thank you, this is very helpful. So the Muslim here is more likely to be an unbalanced Fe user, yes?
    I could see it as Si also (promoting his traditional customs). On a lesser scale, compare it to a job that insists tattoos must be covered. Does that sound like Fi? Or is that more likely Si?

    Ultimately though, I think it has far less to do with function than an individual who is unreasonable.


    The only problem I can see with this is in situations where professional circumstances force INFPs to work with people they don't like/don't agree with...in these cases, from what I've observed, they won't outright criticize you like an unhealthy Fe user seeking to show you're ignoring community courtesy standards, but rather they'll do something even worse--make back-handed sardonic comments that sharply criticize through passive-aggression while still allowing the Fi user to pretend he didn't intend any offense.

    Clearly not all INFPs are guilty of this, but it's definitely something the less mature ones seem to do a lot and I find it extraordinarily disingenuous and abusive.
    And we may find the ENTP's condescending, rude, and dismissive manner when they don't like/agree with something to be abusive and harsh. We all have our nasty little quirks, don't we?


    Yes and that's fine when the INFP is a healthy and balanced individual. The problems come when s/he is not, and thus everything gets turned into a personal attack because considering things in impersonal terms is nearly impossible. I've met INFPs who are still terrible about this well into their 40s, so it doesn't always just go away.

    (Likewise, many INTPs continue doing the same thing with their dumb shit super-obsession with so-called "logic", and I've been rather annoyed at this very problem in a number of my INTP friends lately.)
    And for every unhealthy INFP, there's an unhealthy ENTP who sees nothing as personal and is frighteningly detached and thoughtless. Call it a draw.


    Except that you often don't ignore until you've "subtly made a point", which is often interpreted by others as disingenuous because you're provoking an argument and then refusing to deal with the consequences, and worse yet you (again, not YOU personally!) use Fi to guilt trip us for trying to respond. That's infuriating, and it's one situation where NTs actually will become upset--less developed Fi users will recognize this and use it to manipulate people.

    Sure, as long as that person's perspective doesn't violate your values--anyone who does that tends to get auto-vilified. Some of you are especially ridiculous about imagining more reasons to dislike people that you already dislike--trust me, I live with a profoundly perfectionist INFP and we work on music together. When he hears something he doesn't like about a song, that starts to upset him a little because it's so important to him to make the best product he can, and his normally relevant and productive criticisms turn into outright needling as he starts to imagine more and more wrong with the track that isn't actually even there.

    Worse yet, he's impossible to talk to in this state because the impending sense of failure to make a perfect product just freaks him the fuck out. (And this guy is normally a perfectly reasonable and balanced adult!)
    INFPs do have extremely high standards, and the perfectionist side is the down side of someone who is dedicated to quality work out of their principles, not to simply earn a wage. Under stress, everyone's bad side is magnified, so a normally reasonable and balanced person gets a bit ugly. Imagining reasons to dislike people is Ne paranoia fueled by Fi. INFPs do get obsessive about details and can lose their big picture perspective when stressed or dealing with something very important to them.

    I gave the example and advice before of how to constructively criticize an INFP, and then to back off and let them process it. There may be a negative emotional reaction at first, but in the long run, the INFP may actually respond more than other people by making serious efforts to improve.

    In order to get past their perfectionism, they also have to step back and take a break to regain perspective. Suggesting this to an INFP in a concerned manner should go over fine. We especially like to goof off and take a break . As a graphic designer, I have to do this with my work; step away from it, sleep on it, etc, and then I can see it more clearly and not hone in on trivial details.

    Since we're going tit for tat , I find ENTPs to be great at taking criticism, and then letting it go in one ear and out the other. They "mmhm" you, smile, then continue on their same coarse

    As for INFP values, they can be disagreed with, just not disrespected. Your approach goes a loooong way with NFs. NFs may not be provoking an argument, but trying to bring up a discussion because we do like to hear other views (this is where Ne comes in to play). If you respond in a coarse manner, then they're going to get upset.

    I would say that subtle points are more often made by example. I just go about my business and do my best to live up to my values. If it's within my control, I will avoid individuals who make me uncomfortable. If it's not within my control, my laid-back attitude is surprisingly effective at influencing their behavior. I choose "laid-back" over "passive" because it's intentional and actually takes much strength to hold back.

    Most INFPs have to be needled to respond to an issue that is close to their heart; most don't broach it voluntarily. I personally avoid all discussion that is touchy unless pushed into it. As an introvert, it is exhausting for me to mentally exert myself to explain my internal views externally, so I just avoid it.

    Pushing and pushing an INFP is a bad approach. What may seem like them continually trying to make a subtle point are probably warnings to back off when you bring it up, and if you keep ignoring it, that's when they blow or clam up. If they respond that way, it's because they've been telling you for awhile that they don't want to discuss it at all and they never did, but you kept pushing. It's not a way to trap people and express our view without hearing yours.

    I admit they should probably just say "I don't want to talk about it" to begin with, but that sometimes leads to more probing, which is tiring.

    I'm surprised at this perspective of INFPs purposefully and passively provoking arguments. More often than not people complain that INFP values are like a mine-field (guilty...). You don't know where the touchy spots are until you hit it and the bomb goes off. It seems like in the former case, they are giving you a map (see the warning not to push paragraph again).

    Of course there are instances in which you have every right to push a topic and INFPs can be overly avoidant, but then refer back to "constructive criticism", "right approach", and "letting the INFP process it" points. There's a way to deal with us and make it a win-win situation; it's like handling fine china .


    The problem is it's not just a few bad apples, just like the whole super-logic robot thing with NTPs is not just a few bad apples. It's far more widespread than it should be in both cases.

    In the case of the NFP version of this behavior, it is specific to Fi; that doesn't mean that all or even a majority of Fi users do it, just that the motivation for it tends to be Fi more often than other functions.
    Usually, yes. This depends purely on maturity level. As I've said several times I think that Fi and Ti are virtually the same thing and that both have really terrible problems with trying to insist that their own viewpoints are objectively correct.
    See, I have the feeling that people type INFPs based on negative behavior. I think a lot of screwed-up people get typed as INFPs when they are just screwed-up and not INFP. In the same way, I think the bad apple INTPs get a lot more attention also. It's a matter of perspective, and seeing the more obvious bad behavior.

    And yes, our dominant function is obviously going to be at the source for much of our behavior.

    INFPs complain a lot about being misunderstood and only having their negative qualities pointed out. While this may be due to sensitivity, it's also a part of being a square peg in a round ESTJ holed society. Our positive traits are behind-the-scenes and often unacknowledged, so I guess that breeds a bit of touchiness.

    From my perspective, ENTPs were dealt an easier hand than most other NTs and INFXs. I think their voice is heard more and taken more seriously in society, so there's less frustration in making a Fi/Ti point.

    And yet NFs are the only people who ever imply that I target them specifically with such critical posts.

    Why do you suppose that is?
    Eh, sensors complain a lot too on these boards about being overly criticized. When criticism is aimed at you, then you're more likely to take note. This may be why it seems NTs are always being misunderstood by NFs.

    NFs do admittedly have a harder time seeing things in an objective perspective and are very sensitive. I've seen a lot of NFs stick up for NTs when they get slammed, so we may just be sensitive to what we see as unnecessary or nonconstructive criticism towards anyone.

    We're also extremely self-critical due to our idealism, so this adds to the feeling of being criticized a lot and never being good enough. It's like: "I've been beating myself up all day long and now I have to hear it from you too?".

    I don't know anything about you and your specific posts. I can't speak for other people on their perspective of your postings.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  8. #88
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Enneagram
    7w6 sx/so
    Socionics
    ILE
    Posts
    5,554

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    IRL, you are the author of your words, and unless you are a child, you have prior knowledge of society's communication standards. It is merely an excuse for poor communication and social skills.
    Uh huh, and that's why it's particularly annoying when NFPs are too dense to realize that their personal communication standards should NOT somehow be universalized upon society. (I thought you didn't like pushing your values on people?)

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    I don't think all novelists target an audience, particularly good ones. People who target an audience are writing for mostly money....but that's an unrelated tangent.
    Anything sold for profit is targeted at a specific audience, but yes, that's off topic.




    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    No, certain behavior and words carry implications in society, as I said before. If it is a case of misunderstanding, to continue to insist would be obnoxious, but so is continuing to use an ineffective communication style and then blaming everyone else when you're constantly misinterpreted.
    Yes, and NFPs are often guilty of grossly misrepresenting their own personal ethical standards as somehow universal in society. In fact, your interpretations of emotional implications are not nearly as ubiquitous as you seem to enjoy convincing yourselves they are.



    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    NFs will stop presuming your emotion when you NTs stop disregarding our ethical viewpoints and assuming you know our reasoning and generally stop being meanies? Deal? Draw up a contract, schedule a meeting, and we'll all sign.
    I'm not assuming that I know your reasoning; that's why I've asked you to explain it, and unfortunately it's adding more weight to my prior suspicion that most of you don't really realize how much you project your ethics on everyone else implicitly while outwardly preaching tolerance and open-mindedness. It's hypocritical and frustrating.

    But yes, I will surely admit that NTs are bad about this and should stop it.



    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    In a serious, non-performance, non-joking manner? Not really. Most NTs I know personally (and I've known/dated a LOT) stay in the realm of mildly pleased to mildly irritated. Not to say they never blow a fuse, drop a tear, or become ecstatic, but it's not their everyday manner.
    I guess most of the NTs you know are introverts. Try going to the bar with a few ENTJs and see what happens.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    George Carlin is an entertainer and he is acting. If he was having a serious discussion and not trying to make people laugh, then I suspect he might not take on a comical exaggeration. I don't think NFs are interpreting soft emotion when an NT is merely employing "angry humor". I have yet to see that. Also, if an NT is employing humor in that manner when having a serious discussion, then again, some serious work on the social skills is needed (refer back to "the appropriate time and place").
    Just as Jane Austen's characters are fictional, yes.

    So, wait...you don't think Carlin is simultaneously trying to make people laugh and make a serious point? I'm not even sure what to say to that.

    It's not always humor; humor is one possible effect but it's largely because we think exaggerated language gets our points across better. I don't know how else to explain that. If you choose to believe it's because we're in denial then I'm afraid nothing will convince you otherwise.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    The phrases "rant" and "freak out" connote a lot of emotion though. Emotion doesn't have to be soft and from the heart. Emotion includes anger, irritation, frustration and excitement. It seems NTs also have a different idea of what emotion is...it's not all weepy and weak. Again, if you're not feeling anything strong, but you behave like you are, then why blame the audience for misinterpreting?
    Because the idea that we're behaving emotionally is purely a function of your perception.

    The fact that you still refuse to acknowledge this is highly indicative of inability to separate your own ethical standards (Fi) from universal standards that apply everywhere (Ne.)

    How would you feel if you told an NT you were upset about something and wanted to discuss it seriously, and he responded, "No, you're not upset. You're behaving totally impersonally right now, so stop pretending there's any personal motivation in your opinions here."

    How ridiculous would that sound? That's what it sounds like to us when we're coming at you with impersonal reasoning and you insist that it's personal. We're very tired of your self-righteous insistence that your ideas on what speech indicates what emotional state are somehow objective or universal.




    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    So wait, now we're supposed to read your mind as to what you "care" about, but you get mad when we try and read it incorrectly?
    I guess that was kind of tongue in cheek...you have a fair point here. But just to let you know, it's really really irritating when you start a debate about a topic we're interested in and then insist on sidetracking into one we rarely care about.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    The problem here is for an NF, ethics are not separate from anything. They are the core of everything. If I bring up ethics in a discussion, it is because it is very relevant to the matter in my eyes. Often times, I want to shake NTs when they put their logic blinders on and refuse to see things from a human standpoint, which includes ethics and emotions. NFs arguments will almost always be colored and broadened by ethics, because the black and white logic realm is too stark and narrow to be representative of reality for us. The NT approach can seem unintelligent, because it's often cutting out a part of the whole picture.
    That's fair enough; clearly the opposite is true from the NT perspective.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    Dismissing someone's viewpoint as irrelevant because it includes ethics is another NT grievance to add to the list. As for actual tangents, all intuitive are guilty of tangents that make people around them smack their heads. I think the only people who really have a right to complain about tangents are sensors (but then they have their own sensor way of steering conversations also).
    Weren't you just telling me that there's a time and a place for such things? We don't think ethics are a total non-issue; we just really don't want to hear about it in the middle of a discussion where the context has been particularly defined otherwise.

    This is part of what goes into us thinking that you take things too personally--say we've specifically defined the discussion as regarding the logical implications of topic x. Frequently you'll jump right in and begin to discuss topic x, getting us interested in what you have to say, only to then shut off and refuse to discuss it in the context we've asked for, because you for some reason seem unable to differentiate between contexts where ethics critiques are appropriate and contexts where they are not.

    It's taken me a long time to learn that impersonal logic is not always the most appropriate response, but I feel like if I'm going to make an effort to understand your feelings more/apply a Feeling approach in the right situations, it would be nice if you all could reciprocate.

    When someone comes to me and starts a discussion specifically in a Feeling context, it's clearly wrong of me to tell him/her that the way s/he is feeling is illogical. Since the discussion has been defined in an emotional context, it's my responsibility to recognize that a purely logical approach is not appropriate and respond thusly.

    Many NTs do fail to do this constantly.

    The problem with INFPs is that you don't ever seem to recognize that any contexts where Fi is inappropriate even exist at all, and when people point out to you that hey, maybe a more impersonal approach would work in this case, you just insist that we're attacking your feelings and then everything goes to shit.

    If you want NTs to see the personal side, you need to work on seeing the impersonal side at the same time. "But I'm a Feeler so I just CAN'T ever separate my feelings from anything for even a moment!" is really not an excuse.






    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    I'm really surprised at this. INFPs are so big on self-improvement and we are very self-critical because of our high ideals. I have heard INFPs talk about the Fi-Si loop (withdrawing from the world and not using Ne) in which the INFP has given up all hope on everything and themselves; time to go on suicide watch then...
    Which is sometimes really helpful because perfectionism tends to lead to success...but unfortunately, Fi can also be a curse because it leads INFPs into fierce denial about overapplying it--and if anybody questions it, they tend to just get shot down as "intolerant" or "ignorant" or some other subtly condescending shot that, again, sharply criticizes while allowing the INFP to dodge responsibility for the maliciousness.

    At least NTs will tell you outright if they think you're an asshole. It's this childish back-handed shit that really gets me.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    On the other hand, we're introverts, and much of our workings stay hidden. For all you know, these INFPs are kicking themselves all the time and trying to get past bad habits.
    I'm sure they are, and the fact that self-improvement is so important ironically ends up shutting people off to the idea of improvement in the area of not taking criticism too personally. It's a vicious cycle.





    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    I could see it as Si also (promoting his traditional customs). On a lesser scale, compare it to a job that insists tattoos must be covered. Does that sound like Fi? Or is that more likely Si?
    That sounds like Ni because it's based on taking advantage of how customers will interpret what tattoos symbolize in young people and how that might affect sales.

    (On a side note, another INFP mistake I've noticed is mistaking simple economics for a personal attack and going on a moral crusade against it--for instance, I knew an INFP girl who was certain that corporate America intentionally lowballs women's salaries because corporate leaders are all sexist pigs who personally hate women and their feelings, not really realizing that this is just a function of economics and that EVERYONE'S salary gets lowballed as much as the employer can get away with, because that makes the most money. It's called haggling, but by God don't try and tell that to an angry INFP who's certain she's being oppressed by the man! Women simply don't stand up for themselves as often--again, simple economics get twisted into an emotionally charged personal attack because Fi doesn't understand external context.)

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    Ultimately though, I think it has far less to do with function than an individual who is unreasonable.
    That's true...but the point of this thread was not to imply that NFs are the only unreasonable people, just to dissect several ways in which I find them to be unreasonable.



    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    And we may find the ENTP's condescending, rude, and dismissive manner when they don't like/agree with something to be abusive and harsh. We all have our nasty little quirks, don't we?
    Yes.




    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    And for every unhealthy INFP, there's an unhealthy ENTP who sees nothing as personal and is frighteningly detached and thoughtless. Call it a draw.
    Why exactly is it that you still think I'm looking for a pissing match about which types have more unhealthy people? That's a recipe for one big fat waste of time.




    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    INFPs do have extremely high standards, and the perfectionist side is the down side of someone who is dedicated to quality work out of their principles, not to simply earn a wage. Under stress, everyone's bad side is magnified, so a normally reasonable and balanced person gets a bit ugly. Imagining reasons to dislike people is Ne paranoia fueled by Fi. INFPs do get obsessive about details and can lose their big picture perspective when stressed or dealing with something very important to them.
    Yes I've noticed this and I feel it's one of the biggest problems.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    I gave the example and advice before of how to constructively criticize an INFP, and then to back off and let them process it. There may be a negative emotional reaction at first, but in the long run, the INFP may actually respond more than other people by making serious efforts to improve.
    Maybe; I much prefer criticizing INFJs though because they're much more capable of breaking out of their own perspectives. They'll probably shoot you down at first, but after they have their little J bitch time, they'll give your ideas the utmost unbiased consideration in most cases.

    INFPs often just skip the whole unbiased consideration and go straight into self-righteous pissy mode because the whole world isn't bending to their personal ideas on ethics. (By the way, here is something you could learn from INFJs--ethics is not an end unto itself, nor an end state, but rather a MEANS to some other end.) I know you guys don't realize you're doing this a lot of the time, but it really looks awkward in combination with your outward insistence that you epitomize open-mindedness while slapping labels like "intolerant" and "bigot" on anybody who doesn't agree with your values.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    In order to get past their perfectionism, they also have to step back and take a break to regain perspective. Suggesting this to an INFP in a concerned manner should go over fine. We especially like to goof off and take a break . As a graphic designer, I have to do this with my work; step away from it, sleep on it, etc, and then I can see it more clearly and not hone in on trivial details.
    How would you suggest I word this without coming off as implying that the INFP is being too emotional? I find myself having to walk on eggshells with them a lot because one wrong word triggers an emotional outburst and then the whole vibe of that day's work is ruined.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    Since we're going tit for tat , I find ENTPs to be great at taking criticism, and then letting it go in one ear and out the other. They "mmhm" you, smile, then continue on their same coarse
    We sure do!

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    As for INFP values, they can be disagreed with, just not disrespected. Your approach goes a loooong way with NFs. NFs may not be provoking an argument, but trying to bring up a discussion because we do like to hear other views (this is where Ne comes in to play). If you respond in a coarse manner, then they're going to get upset.
    That's fair, and NTs are definitely guilty of poking at NFs for this reaction just to illustrate how "illogical" it is, which is entirely unacceptable and definitely something NTs should stop doing.

    I've learned so much about how to handle INFPs from the aforementioned roommate, but I still have a few issues that I don't quite get.

    Did you copy/paste some of this from a previous thread? It sounds familiar.

    The problem I tend to see with NPs in general is that we like to hear other views, just not give them any serious consideration.



    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    I would say that subtle points are more often made by example. I just go about my business and do my best to live up to my values. If it's within my control, I will avoid individuals who make me uncomfortable. If it's not within my control, my laid-back attitude is surprisingly effective at influencing their behavior. I choose "laid-back" over "passive" because it's intentional and actually takes much strength to hold back.
    Well that's great; it sounds like you've got a good approach to that situation.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    Most INFPs have to be needled to respond to an issue that is close to their heart; most don't broach it voluntarily. I personally avoid all discussion that is touchy unless pushed into it. As an introvert, it is exhausting for me to mentally exert myself to explain my internal views externally, so I just avoid it.
    That's a problem, though, when your external behavior is controlled by those internal views and you refuse to change it or explain it to anyone else. It's fine and good for you and your own personal endeavors, but it can create serious problems in work-related environments where group work is necessary.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    Pushing and pushing an INFP is a bad approach. What may seem like them continually trying to make a subtle point are probably warnings to back off when you bring it up, and if you keep ignoring it, that's when they blow or clam up. If they respond that way, it's because they've been telling you for awhile that they don't want to discuss it at all and they never did, but you kept pushing. It's not a way to trap people and express our view without hearing yours.
    Unfortunately when you get upset your "warning signs" are often just rude passive-aggression. If you tell a Thinker, "Listen, I don't want to talk about this because I don't think I can discuss it impersonally right now" instead of making some silly little sarcastic jab about what a moron he is when it comes to respecting people's feelings, you'll get a much better response as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    I admit they should probably just say "I don't want to talk about it" to begin with, but that sometimes leads to more probing, which is tiring.
    It doesn't lead to nearly as much probing as the aforementioned passive-aggressive approach.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    I'm surprised at this perspective of INFPs purposefully and passively provoking arguments. More often than not people complain that INFP values are like a mine-field (guilty...). You don't know where the touchy spots are until you hit it and the bomb goes off. It seems like in the former case, they are giving you a map (see the warning not to push paragraph again).
    I've actually got a fair amount of personal experience mediating disagreements between INFP and INFJ, and the response I always get from both of them is: "Well he started it, I was just defending myself!"

    And it's because both types are horrible about imagining hostility when it wasn't there, then using Feeling-ethics to decide that they're justified in responding sardonically because "they didn't start it!" (The INFP in this INFP/INFJ battle actually told me that it didn't matter one bit whether or not offense was intended because it hurt his feelings, and therefore he was completely morally justified in responding however rudely he wanted to. Does this not seem a little questionable? Fi is just so far out in self-absorbed imagination land here that it has no idea that any other value system is even worth any consideration--how the fuck do you communicate with someone like that?)

    And where does it end?

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    Of course there are instances in which you have every right to push a topic and INFPs can be overly avoidant, but then refer back to "constructive criticism", "right approach", and "letting the INFP process it" points. There's a way to deal with us and make it a win-win situation; it's like handling fine china
    ENTPs aren't much for handling fine china, unfortunately, but I get your point and it does make sense.






    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    See, I have the feeling that people type INFPs based on negative behavior. I think a lot of screwed-up people get typed as INFPs when they are just screwed-up and not INFP. In the same way, I think the bad apple INTPs get a lot more attention also. It's a matter of perspective, and seeing the more obvious bad behavior.
    Well, it's probably because they're screwed-up INFPs. Personally, I think screwed-up INTPs end up screwing themselves much worse in the long run because in this society, being too emotional tends to work out better than not being emotional enough, so maybe the INFPs have the right idea here.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    And yes, our dominant function is obviously going to be at the source for much of our behavior.

    INFPs complain a lot about being misunderstood and only having their negative qualities pointed out. While this may be due to sensitivity, it's also a part of being a square peg in a round ESTJ holed society. Our positive traits are behind-the-scenes and often unacknowledged, so I guess that breeds a bit of touchiness.
    True.



    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    From my perspective, ENTPs were dealt an easier hand than most other NTs and INFXs. I think their voice is heard more and taken more seriously in society, so there's less frustration in making a Fi/Ti point.
    Whooooooa there, slow down little buddy...ENTPs are often among the most introverted of E types because we constantly have to be careful not to open our mouths in the wrong context for fear of appearing absolutely insane. Not to mention our learning process sucks because we never understand until we've fucked everything up completely beyond all recognition and rebuilt it from the ground up--this is NOT fun in most cases.



    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    Eh, sensors complain a lot too on these boards about being overly criticized. When criticism is aimed at you, then you're more likely to take note. This may be why it seems NTs are always being misunderstood by NFs.
    I tend to think it's more because NFs really do misunderstand NTs, but since they pride themselves on their ability to understand others, they suffer from overconfidence in this particular area more often than other types.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    NFs do admittedly have a harder time seeing things in an objective perspective and are very sensitive. I've seen a lot of NFs stick up for NTs when they get slammed, so we may just be sensitive to what we see as unnecessary or nonconstructive criticism towards anyone.
    Sure, if it's a topic where the intuitive viewpoints line up. I've rarely ever seen an NF defend an NT in a T vs. F kind of situation though; it's usually just on S/N debates.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    We're also extremely self-critical due to our idealism, so this adds to the feeling of being criticized a lot and never being good enough. It's like: "I've been beating myself up all day long and now I have to hear it from you too?".
    We wouldn't have any real need to criticize you most of the time if you didn't stop expecting us (and everyone else) to appreciate or exercise Fi on the same level of proficiency that you do.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    I don't know anything about you and your specific posts. I can't speak for other people on their perspective of your postings.
    Fine, but I'm sure you got the point.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  9. #89
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    MBTI
    enfp
    Enneagram
    8
    Posts
    13,881

    Default

    Sure, if it's a topic where the intuitive viewpoints line up. I've rarely ever seen an NF defend an NT in a T vs. F kind of situation though; it's usually just on S/N debates.
    lolwut?
    Kantgirl: Just say "I'm feminine and I'll punch anyone who says otherwise!"
    Halla74: Think your way through the world. Feel your way through life.

    Cimarron: maybe Prpl will be your girl-bud
    prplchknz: i don't like it

    In Search Of... ... Kiwi Sketch Art ... Dream Journal ... Kyuuei's Cook book ... Kyu's Tiny House Blog ... Minimalist Challenge ... Kyu's Savings Challenge

  10. #90
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    MBTI
    Yin
    Enneagram
    One sx/sp
    Posts
    13,910

    Default

    This thread may contain the longest post I've seen. Not in terms of the number of characters, but really as in how many screens it takes up.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


    _________________________________
    INTP. Type 1>6>5. sx/sp.
    Live and let live will just amount to might makes right

Similar Threads

  1. [NF] How to get into company of NFs who don't need new friends?
    By gandalf in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 04-07-2016, 12:48 AM
  2. Silly little "personality" test to do instead of writing a paper.
    By Rajah in forum Online Personality Tests
    Replies: 38
    Last Post: 06-01-2015, 01:41 AM
  3. How to do a million things?
    By Wolfie in forum Academics and Careers
    Replies: 11
    Last Post: 07-18-2012, 11:13 AM
  4. [INTJ] Why do a lot of people seem to have lots of negative views about INTJs?
    By bai_lin83 in forum The NT Rationale (ENTP, INTP, ENTJ, INTJ)
    Replies: 87
    Last Post: 01-21-2008, 12:30 AM
  5. [MBTItm] What to do when your INF is out of control?
    By Cordiform in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 17
    Last Post: 11-14-2007, 03:56 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO