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  1. #71
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    ^ That's cool...but it really comes off as much more obnoxious/controlling when you start declaring people's thoughts or feelings for them.

    That really doesn't come off as an attempt to relate or understand so much as an attempt to be really fucking annoying (and it works!)


    P.S.,

    Do yourselves a favor and review the responses I got from INFPs in this thread.

    And you wonder why it bugs me that these people consider themselves models of open-mindedness.

    Christ.
    I get that it's annoying, but it's also frustrating to see someone struggling with themselves like that and not being allowed to say anything..it itches, as Jennifer described in her post

    These days, I only do it when explicitely asked for it, or as a defense mechanism when I feel attacked, coz it makes me wonder why the person is attacking me..which is I guess the situation you're referring to. I do my best to bite my tongue these days though when that happens, as I know it will just make it worse. Unfortunately it comes so naturally that at times you don't even realize you're doing it.

    And:

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I don't know how I feel about the intuitive approach. I actually deal with a few S people who are really bad at realizing what their motives are or that they even have anything going on under the surface.

    But to me, it's sort of obvious.. it's like seeing a whale tail sticking up out of the water; the tail wouldn't be there if there wasn't a whale attached to it.

    (well, hopefully not, that's sorta gross.)

    It's just, how do I approach that?

    I had to have a beat-out conversation with one of these people last night. I find it exhausting. I did share my thoughts about how they seemed to be operating from certain feelings when they behave a certain way (the behaviors wouldn't happen if they didn't have that source, probably).

    As expected, they fought me on it for an hour... then actually concluded I was right. It's sort of maddening to know what to do, I don't want to be wrong but it's like in a deterministic system; a certain outcome strongly suggests a few particular causes. Things don't exist in a vacuum.

    I don't like people imposing Feelings on me that I don't actually feel... but that's because I'm extremely introspective. I can still empathize with a bit when NFs do this thing, I'm just not sure how else it could be handled.
    That's the million dollar question isn't it

    Plz lemme know if you ever figure that out
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    "Harm none, do as ye will”

  2. #72
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    What's funny is that I never get accused of being emotional when I'm not, in real life. If anything people tend to see me as too stoic!

    This suggests to me that the text-based medium of the internet eliminates enough context that emotional tone can't really be read effectively through it.
    This is true, but it's not an issue only Thinkers face. Everyone experiences this on the internet. I can be quite wry, but on one message board I was accused of being hostile when I thought it was clearly tongue-in-cheek. This is when little winking smiley faces come in handy

    Uh huh, it's just that when it comes to the internet you really don't have enough context at all to be making those sorts of assumptions about anyone's emotional states, so the only thing you can really do is just ask for an explanation of how they're feeling.
    This is only true to a point; word choice and phrasing do make a difference. Think of reading a novel; the author has written dialogue, and based on the words, you can easily ascribe an emotion to the character without the author having to say directly that the character is angry or happy, and without hearing a voice or seeing a face. Jane Austen is an excellent example of dialogue with clear emotion, and with no commentary from the author on facial expressions or tone of voice. It's just back and forth dialogue in parts, and yet you know who is feeling what. The words in themselves have a tone.

    So word choices go a long way. And maybe NFPs do have a better grasp on this (we are excellent novelists after all :P). Intuitives in general should be good at seeing what is implied, but not directly stated.

    And let's face it, using a lot of bold and italicized text tends to add emphasis, which suggests a more emotional tone. It gives the idea of a voice going up and down, much as all caps gives the idea of yelling. In person, when a person keeps an even tone, it gives the impression of calmness, so it's the same online with the text format.



    Yes, I have a very similar problem with INTPs. I can certainly see where some Thinkers do this, but it's rather hard for us to accept a position as logical until we can directly see why--do you not have this problem?

    Do you tend to go around accepting everything everyone tells you without questioning why it might or might not be true? Because that seems to be the only alternative here.
    No one is telling Thinkers to accept a belief as their own, but they can be respectful and not derogatory when asking for an explanation. If you go in with the attitude that the person is wrong, then they'll likely just get defensive.

    It's also exhausting for people to have to constantly be explaining their view. There's a time and place for it, and Thinkers seem to miss that. Sometimes you can just let it go and accept that a person believes something without demanding an explanation on the spot. They don't owe you any explanation anyway. It's THEIR belief.


    Could be...are you suggesting that when Feelers respond negatively to this sort of situation, they actually don't intend to place their words in an emotional context most of the time?

    If that's the case I would be very interested to hear more about it.
    Maybe not most or all the time, but sometimes, sure. I accept that I am an emotional person, but that doesn't mean I am not in control of my emotions or that I cannot think separately from them. Fi is value-based and considers emotion, it's not run on emotion.

    It also seems a convenient excuse for Thinkers to write off the NF viewpoint as "emotional" and invalidate it so as not to have to answer it seriously. That's just plain degrading. An emotional viewpoint can still be a valid one.


    I see. Can you explain why this has nothing to do with Fi, and furthermore why it's ridiculous?

    Also, regardless of which function(s) it represents--are you justified in refusing to accommodate the man's feelings here? Why or why not?

    Fi is a value-based, rational thought process, not emotions-based, as I said above. A Fi-dom can have an emotion and realize it is not rational and put it aside. Fi values can clash with a person's own emotions. On tests when they ask if you think with your heart or head, I put head, because I frequently go against my own emotion. In that sense, Fi people can be very reasonable. Even in the moment if they get defensive and irrational, once the emotional cloud clears we can see things for what they are and adjust our view (this is going to be in my part 2 of caring for INFPs :P). I might react in the moment, but if you leave me alone to think, then I will come to see the situation in a more reasonable light. We're big on self-improvement after all.

    More specifically to the scenario of Muslim man's feelings and demands: INFPs generally find independence very important. The individual's potential and feelings rule, and that includes a respect for other individual's feelings and values (in contrast with Fe, which is more group-oriented). This means we generally do not push our views on other people, and do not expect or give accommodation to values that are unreasonable (for the sake of brevity, I will not explain "unreasonableness" here). You can now see why we expect that from others: don't degrade our view and don't push yours, because we wouldn't do that to you. This doesn't mean we may not try to persuade or influence, but it's far more gentle than a harsh insisting. INFPs are compassionate (which makes up for high idealistic standards), encouraging people to change for the better, not making demands. We value authenticity, which means that good must come from the heart, not be an act to please others. Forcing our view on others violates the desire to see people choosing the right path for themselves.

    This is why we are not known to be leaders, because we're pretty relaxed about people doing things their own way. The only time we may get harsh is if WE are being pushed to violate a value, or someone has directly degraded our values. So if you asked the man to do something himself that violates his religion, then he might get ruffled. If you mocked or belittled his religion, then he might get ruffled.

    Otherwise, we'll probably just ignore those around us and continue to lead by example and subtly make a point when we can do so without being imposing. INFPs also tend to simply avoid and run away from situations that are hostile to our values, because we don't want to deal with any confrontation. We're pretty good at ignoring and avoiding :P

    We're also good at empathizing, which means putting ourselves in your shoes. If that man was an INFP, he would consider how he'd feel if someone made that kind of request to him, and he would likely reconsider it based on his ability to see from other people's perspectives.

    I say generally a lot here, because INFP values will vary from person to person. However, these are points that many INFP profiles emphasize: importance of the individual, empathy, avoiding confrontation, authenticity, etc.

    There may be some INFP bad apples who only value themselves and they might do/say ridiculous things, but any type can have bad apples, and that's why it's not specific to Fi, and even unlikely.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

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  3. #73
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    simulatedworld:

    Are you sure this is a T/F thing specifically? I've had both NTs and NFs to do to me (and other Fs) what you say NFPs do to you. I know sometimes I'm pretty hard on those guys myself, but that's only because I've had bad experiences with some of them... I know they're not all like that.

    The fact is, people all react to things differently. And what one person thinks is perfectly okay is going to be terribly offensive to another. There are a few basic things we can all mostly agree are offensive, but beyond that... you pretty much have to play guessing games to figure out what a given person will or won't be offended by.

    What I've learned to do is try to look at various signs, like the way a person is dressed, where they come from, what kind of people they hang around with, who they talk to, etc... and try to get a vague idea of what they might value or abhor based on that. Usually I get a good enough image to avoid offending them 70% of the time. The other 30%, I just try to apologize and convince them I didn't mean it.

    Then, I try to look at what the unexpected offense I caused them implies about their self-image, try to examine how that differs from my previous assumptions, and then try to adjust my perception of them based on the new information.

    This is the best way to deal with people in my experience, because whether we like it or not... people are not going to respond with logic most of the time. They're social animals, that are shaped far beyond the reach and domain of reason by the way their personal experiences mesh with the values of the people around them. The only trait I can't work with is when someone refuses to be tolerant and insists that their values should have been obvious. There's no real room for forgiveness or continued interaction in that scenario.

    So basically, I guess what I'm saying is, you would save yourself a lot of time and effort if you just stopped expecting rational behavior from other people or believing in their capacity for it to such an extent that you obsess over their lack of it. You already know they lack it, and we know that you know, so what's the point in talking about it? You don't really think you can change anything by increasing awareness, do you?

  4. #74
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    This is true, but it's not an issue only Thinkers face. Everyone experiences this on the internet. I can be quite wry, but on one message board I was accused of being hostile when I thought it was clearly tongue-in-cheek. This is when little winking smiley faces come in handy
    Yes I've noticed the smilies are a big part of F online language.

    I am learning...slowly.



    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    This is only true to a point; word choice and phrasing do make a difference. Think of reading a novel; the author has written dialogue, and based on the words, you can easily ascribe an emotion to the character without the author having to say directly that the character is angry or happy, and without hearing a voice or seeing a face. Jane Austen is an excellent example of dialogue with clear emotion, and with no commentary from the author on facial expressions or tone of voice. It's just back and forth dialogue in parts, and yet you know who is feeling what. The words in themselves have a tone.
    I don't think these are quite the same thing--Austen and other authors are clearly writing fictional characters with real emotional motivations as defined by the author who created them.

    Granted, there are standards for how certain characters are implied to be showing certain emotions, but those are all based on the author's prior knowledge of what audience is going to be reading the work and how those people are likely to interpret all the words and actions of their characters...don't you think INFPs and similar types are part of the target audience of many such novels? Of course they'll be written in language that you can identify with. (This sort of Ni-based insight is something I think Fi/Ti tends to neglect in favor of attempting to objectively universalize its own perspective.)

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    So word choices go a long way. And maybe NFPs do have a better grasp on this (we are excellent novelists after all :P). Intuitives in general should be good at seeing what is implied, but not directly stated.
    Sure, but what's "implied" requires an actual attempt at implication on the part of the speaker; otherwise you're making a mistake by holding us to arbitrary standards about what words and action should imply what motivations.

    It's not unreasonable to make these intuitive guesses in the first place; we all do that--what's unreasonable is to continue clinging to them long after the speaker has corrected you on his own motivation, and it makes it even worse if you refuse to admit that you were wrong (the problem is many Fi-ers don't even realize how wrong they often are about this, instead insisting to themselves and others that the person must be in denial. How obnoxious.)

    Notice how you see a number of reactionary threads from NTs with titles such as "Why NFs still don't understand NTs", and so on? Threads like this where NTs make a specific effort to explain why you so frequently misinterpret our words and actions?

    Notice also how you never see threads where NTs make sure to assert that SPs or SJs don't understand them? This is because SPs and SJs don't run around asserting that they understand our perspectives better than we do. That's what needs to stop.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    And let's face it, using a lot of bold and italicized text tends to add emphasis, which suggests a more emotional tone. It gives the idea of a voice going up and down, much as all caps gives the idea of yelling. In person, when a person keeps an even tone, it gives the impression of calmness, so it's the same online with the text format.
    Yes, have you ever watched an NT rant in person?

    Pull up a George Carlin sketch on youtube about some trivial concept--he screams and exaggerates and freaks out over all kinds of things, but no matter how big (like say, PTSD) or how small (like say, Mickey Mouse's birthday being announced on the television news), he still seems to be ludicrously upset about it, and you have to wonder why.

    Until, of course, you realize that that's part of his style and it's intended to grab attention/use hyperbole to illustrate a point, not pour his heart out to the audience about how deeply upset he is. It's far more calculated and far less "from the heart" than you think.





    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    No one is telling Thinkers to accept a belief as their own, but they can be respectful and not derogatory when asking for an explanation. If you go in with the attitude that the person is wrong, then they'll likely just get defensive.
    That's absolutely true and one of the biggest problems with NTs, especially NTPs.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    It's also exhausting for people to have to constantly be explaining their view. There's a time and place for it, and Thinkers seem to miss that. Sometimes you can just let it go and accept that a person believes something without demanding an explanation on the spot. They don't owe you any explanation anyway. It's THEIR belief.
    There's a time and place for it, like say, on an internet forum where people discuss psychological type and its implications.

    Learning the proper time to ask for these explanations is a function of exploring weaker functions; suffice it to say, I've learned the hard way not to do this in real life.




    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    Maybe not most or all the time, but sometimes, sure. I accept that I am an emotional person, but that doesn't mean I am not in control of my emotions or that I cannot think separately from them. Fi is value-based and considers emotion, it's not run on emotion.


    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    It also seems a convenient excuse for Thinkers to write off the NF viewpoint as "emotional" and invalidate it so as not to have to answer it seriously. That's just plain degrading. An emotional viewpoint can still be a valid one.
    We do answer; in fact, it just makes us extraordinarily frustrated because as Ns you have a habit of engaging us in debates about topics we find fascinating (this is our favorite pastime and very very important to us) and we find it totally ridiculous when you sidetrack a productive debate/exchange of ideas in order to lecture us like 6 year olds about how our personal courtesy problems. When we're in the middle of exploring ideas/debating, we really don't particularly care about your ethics critiques, and moreover, it's irritating that you've SHOWN that you are capable of discussing these ideas intelligently (N) and then chosen not to so that you can go on an ethics rant (F).

    Seriously, most of us don't even care enough to bother asking why you do this. It's not because we're deeply upset and deeply in denial about it; we just don't care.

    I might offer you the same advice--there's a time and a place, and you're going to piss off Thinkers (especially NTs) when you sidetrack what they see as productive discussion to complain about their poor performance in an area that rarely ever even factors into their thinking.

    It's not as bad with SFs because most of them don't really grasp or care about the intuitive theory stuff that we so enjoy discussing--with you, it's kind of like we expect you to know better than to expect us to notice or care.





    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    Fi is a value-based, rational thought process, not emotions-based, as I said above. A Fi-dom can have an emotion and realize it is not rational and put it aside. Fi values can clash with a person's own emotions. On tests when they ask if you think with your heart or head, I put head, because I frequently go against my own emotion. In that sense, Fi people can be very reasonable. Even in the moment if they get defensive and irrational, once the emotional cloud clears we can see things for what they are and adjust our view (this is going to be in my part 2 of caring for INFPs :P). I might react in the moment, but if you leave me alone to think, then I will come to see the situation in a more reasonable light. We're big on self-improvement after all.
    Usually, yes. This depends purely on maturity level. As I've said several times I think that Fi and Ti are virtually the same thing and that both have really terrible problems with trying to insist that their own viewpoints are objectively correct.

    As a result I've become rather disillusioned with/ashamed of my own Ti and made a lot of attempt to distance myself from it...believe it or not, I was even more of an argumentative prick when I was younger, and I chalk it up almost entirely to my Ti being unable to accept that impersonal logic isn't always the best approach in every situation. It's something I work to grow out of, but often I feel that INFPs in my life make no effort whatsoever to grow out of overdependence on Fi, so it's even worse because it feels like I'm at least trying and they're not even bothering.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    More specifically to the scenario of Muslim man's feelings and demands: INFPs generally find independence very important. The individual's potential and feelings rule, and that includes a respect for other individual's feelings and values (in contrast with Fe, which is more group-oriented). This means we generally do not push our views on other people, and do not expect or give accommodation to values that are unreasonable (for the sake of brevity, I will not explain "unreasonableness" here). You can now see why we expect that from others: don't degrade our view and don't push yours, because we wouldn't do that to you. This doesn't mean we may not try to persuade or influence, but it's far more gentle than a harsh insisting. INFPs are compassionate (which makes up for high idealistic standards), encouraging people to change for the better, not making demands. We value authenticity, which means that good must come from the heart, not be an act to please others. Forcing our view on others violates the desire to see people choosing the right path for themselves.
    I see; thank you, this is very helpful. So the Muslim here is more likely to be an unbalanced Fe user, yes?

    The only problem I can see with this is in situations where professional circumstances force INFPs to work with people they don't like/don't agree with...in these cases, from what I've observed, they won't outright criticize you like an unhealthy Fe user seeking to show you're ignoring community courtesy standards, but rather they'll do something even worse--make back-handed sardonic comments that sharply criticize through passive-aggression while still allowing the Fi user to pretend he didn't intend any offense.

    Clearly not all INFPs are guilty of this, but it's definitely something the less mature ones seem to do a lot and I find it extraordinarily disingenuous and abusive.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    This is why we are not known to be leaders, because we're pretty relaxed about people doing things their own way. The only time we may get harsh is if WE are being pushed to violate a value, or someone has directly degraded our values. So if you asked the man to do something himself that violates his religion, then he might get ruffled. If you mocked or belittled his religion, then he might get ruffled.
    Yes and that's fine when the INFP is a healthy and balanced individual. The problems come when s/he is not, and thus everything gets turned into a personal attack because considering things in impersonal terms is nearly impossible. I've met INFPs who are still terrible about this well into their 40s, so it doesn't always just go away.

    (Likewise, many INTPs continue doing the same thing with their dumb shit super-obsession with so-called "logic", and I've been rather annoyed at this very problem in a number of my INTP friends lately.)

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    Otherwise, we'll probably just ignore those around us and continue to lead by example and subtly make a point when we can do so without being imposing. INFPs also tend to simply avoid and run away from situations that are hostile to our values, because we don't want to deal with any confrontation. We're pretty good at ignoring and avoiding :P
    Except that you often don't ignore until you've "subtly made a point", which is often interpreted by others as disingenuous because you're provoking an argument and then refusing to deal with the consequences, and worse yet you (again, not YOU personally!) use Fi to guilt trip us for trying to respond. That's infuriating, and it's one situation where NTs actually will become upset--less developed Fi users will recognize this and use it to manipulate people.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    We're also good at empathizing, which means putting ourselves in your shoes. If that man was an INFP, he would consider how he'd feel if someone made that kind of request to him, and he would likely reconsider it based on his ability to see from other people's perspectives.
    Sure, as long as that person's perspective doesn't violate your values--anyone who does that tends to get auto-vilified. Some of you are especially ridiculous about imagining more reasons to dislike people that you already dislike--trust me, I live with a profoundly perfectionist INFP and we work on music together. When he hears something he doesn't like about a song, that starts to upset him a little because it's so important to him to make the best product he can, and his normally relevant and productive criticisms turn into outright needling as he starts to imagine more and more wrong with the track that isn't actually even there.

    Worse yet, he's impossible to talk to in this state because the impending sense of failure to make a perfect product just freaks him the fuck out. (And this guy is normally a perfectly reasonable and balanced adult!)


    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    I say generally a lot here, because INFP values will vary from person to person. However, these are points that many INFP profiles emphasize: importance of the individual, empathy, avoiding confrontation, authenticity, etc.

    There may be some INFP bad apples who only value themselves and they might do/say ridiculous things, but any type can have bad apples, and that's why it's not specific to Fi, and even unlikely.
    The problem is it's not just a few bad apples, just like the whole super-logic robot thing with NTPs is not just a few bad apples. It's far more widespread than it should be in both cases.

    In the case of the NFP version of this behavior, it is specific to Fi; that doesn't mean that all or even a majority of Fi users do it, just that the motivation for it tends to be Fi more often than other functions.

    You wanna hear my critiques of Ti and its hypocrisy? If you really go back and read a lot of my older posts, you'll see that I've made a number of posts critiquing every function and every personality type, including my own and similar types, quite often.

    And yet NFs are the only people who ever imply that I target them specifically with such critical posts.

    Why do you suppose that is?
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  5. #75
    AKA Nunki Polaris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post

    And yet NFs are the only people who ever imply that I target them specifically with such critical posts.

    Why do you suppose that is?
    I think a good case can be made that it has very little to do with us being hypersensitive. Aside from NFs, we have NTs and Ss. The Ss on this forum probably feel that they can't complain too much, since they're a minority and one that often gets looked down on. They know their place, so to speak (a place which they don't deserve, in my opinion, but that's another topic). As for the NTs, you're one yourself, and that automatically blunts every blow you make against NTs; you're criticizing yourself as much as you are your fellows. That leaves NFs with the most reason to take offense at what you say. You could argue that our emotionality has a hand in that, but I don't think we're that much more dramatic than NTs. In fact, it's probably from NTs that I've seen some of the worst outbursts and general touchiness.
    [ Ni > Ti > Fe > Fi > Ne > Te > Si > Se ][ 4w5 sp/sx ][ RLOAI ][ IEI-Ni ]

  6. #76
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nunki View Post
    I think a good case can be made that it has very little to do with us being hypersensitive. Aside from NFs, we have NTs and Ss. The Ss on this forum probably feel that they can't complain too much, since they're a minority and one that often gets looked down on. They know their place, so to speak (a place which they don't deserve, in my opinion, but that's another topic). As for the NTs, you're one yourself, and that automatically blunts every blow you make against NTs; you're criticizing yourself as much as you are your fellows. That leaves NFs with the most reason to take offense at what you say. You could argue that our emotionality has a hand in that, but I don't think we're that much more dramatic than NTs. In fact, it's probably from NTs that I've seen some of the worst outbursts and general touchiness.
    I don't understand how being willing to admit my own faults and criticize myself for them makes my points any less valid...?

    If anything it would seem to make them more valid since it indicates that I don't automatically consider all of my own ideas to be correct/am sometimes capable of recognizing the flaws in my own approach.

    I won't pretend that NTs don't make ridiculous outbursts at times as well. As noted above Fi/Ti are very similar in this regard. Obviously they do. Each type has its own particular form of silly outbursts when its value priorities have been violated, so I don't intend to claim that NFs are the only people who are ever unreasonable in this way. To err is, after all, human.

    But once again, I've made numerous posts criticizing every type and every function, and NFs are consistently the ones who respond most negatively/interpret my criticisms as personal attacks when they are not. Somehow just about everybody else (yes, even Sensors) manages to recognize that I point the NT critical lens at everyone and everything, and yet I receive consistent criticism from NFs for "singling them out." I could go count this up in my old posts if I wanted to, but I already know it's the case so I don't really need to.

    Unfortunately neither of us can escape a certain degree of bias here because when I see an NT make an unreasonable outburst I'm probably more inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt/understand where he's coming from and consider it "logical"; the same is likely true of you with NF outbursts.

    I think it's inaccurate, though, to say that NTs do this significantly more or less often than NFs, on the whole. That's both speculative and irrelevant. Your response seems to reduce to, "Nuh uh, you guys do it MORE!", which hardly seems to indicate comprehension of my point--I wrote this thread to deconstruct some of the problems I see with less mature NFs, and it got littered with tons of responses from NFs missing the point and instead whining that I should stop singling them out.

    When I make posts about other non-NF types or functions, I usually get a variety of responses from people of those types either confirming or denying the applicability in their personal experience, but rarely questioning the trend itself and definitely not claiming that their type is the only one I ever criticize.

    Oh wait, here comes the NFP-nut gallery: "WHEN DID WE EVER SAY YOU'RE SINGLING US OUT????", which is a question that, at this point, even my always-up-for-proving-you-wrong Ti doesn't feel it necessary to answer.

    I mean seriously, do you guys not see this by now?

    P.S.,

    Anybody ever read that Matt Stone (South Park co-creator) interview where he says "I hate conservatives, but I REALLY fucking hate liberals!"? He goes on to explain that strong liberals often believe their moral causes to be the only ones that are somehow "above" being mocked. This belief, to me, smacks of NFP hypocrisy (and wow, guess which types lean leftward near-ubiquitously in every major demographic!)
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  7. #77
    AKA Nunki Polaris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    I don't understand how being willing to admit my own faults and criticize myself for them makes my points any less valid...?
    What I'm saying is that when your criticisms are aimed at yourself just as much as other people, your words become more palatable. Instead of taking the high ground, you accept some of the responsibility yourself, and that makes people a lot more receptive to what you say. I could elaborate on what I'm trying to get at here, but I'm deathly tired, and it doesn't really matter. I was just interested in sending you a couple of small thoughts. *shrug*
    [ Ni > Ti > Fe > Fi > Ne > Te > Si > Se ][ 4w5 sp/sx ][ RLOAI ][ IEI-Ni ]

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    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nunki View Post
    What I'm saying is that when your criticisms are aimed at yourself just as much as other people, your words become more palatable. Instead of taking the high ground, you accept some of the responsibility yourself, and that makes people a lot more receptive to what you say. I could elaborate on what I'm trying to get at here, but I'm deathly tired, and it doesn't really matter. I was just interested in sending you a couple of small thoughts. *shrug*
    Yeah, that's precisely what I'm trying to do...your previous posts seems to have contradicted your position here.

    Would it help if I put ESFP in my profile instead? The fact that I'm willing to criticize my own type just as much as others should serve as an indicator that I'm exercising some degree of personal separation from the issue and thus am able to discuss it in slightly more objective terms than you might expect were I only running around criticizing everyone else.

    You've got it backwards; the fact that I'm an NT doesn't make my criticisms of NTs softer; it makes them ring true even more because I've been through it personally. If you bring an NT in to back you up on a thread criticizing NTs, you've strengthened your case, not the other way around.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    You've got it backwards; the fact that I'm an NT doesn't make my criticisms of NTs softer; it makes them ring true even more because I've been through it personally. If you bring an NT in to back you up on a thread criticizing NTs, you've strengthened your case, not the other way around.
    Does it actually say "an NT" or "a NT" ?
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

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    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Well since the word "intuitive" and the letters "en-tee" both begin with vowel sounds, it would be an "an" in both cases, no matter whether you're pronouncing the full word or just the letters.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

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