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  1. #21
    Senior Member Scott N Denver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    If you haven't discovered already, most people don't want to be your science experiment, so if they weren't mad during the discussion, they will be after they realize that they were merely a test project for you!
    I have definitely had this problem with NT's before, particularly NTJ's, particularly INTJ's.

  2. #22
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Can they do that? I like that idea! Back to the original subject!

  3. #23
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lauren Ashley View Post
    Another thread turns into a T vs. F debate. Not. at. all. interested. And this was a great thread idea to start.

    CzeCze, you're a mod. Thread split?
    Is that really necessary given that all discussion on the topic of the OP has completely ceased by now?
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  4. #24
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Well yeah, because we actually liked that topic and put some thought into it. You kind of hijacked it with your experiment.

  5. #25
    Senior Member Scott N Denver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Can they do that? I like that idea! Back to the original subject!
    Ye, original topic. BTW, how is your and OA's bookwork coming along? Inquiring minds [who spend money on MBTI books!!!] want to know.

    BTW, while not nearly as technical as many other MBTI books, I strongly recommend Renee Barron's What Type Am I?

  6. #26
    Senior Member SciVo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    –verb (used without object), e?mot?ed, e?mot?ing.
    1. to show or pretend emotion: to emote over the beauties of nature.
    2. to portray emotion in acting, esp. exaggeratedly or ineptly; behave theatrically: The actress emoted for all she was worth.

    Notice how both of these definitions require the speaker TO INTENTIONALLY PROJECT EMOTIONAL TONE? In both cases the speaker is intentionally attempting to color his tone with emotion--it's dependent upon the speaker, NOT the audience.

    So...in actuality whether or not one is "emoting" is dependent entirely upon one's own motivation, not upon arbitrary, so-called "objective" definitions by arrogant NFs who think their farts don't stink.
    To the rest of the human race, the recognition of whether or not someone is emoting is based on the appearance thereof, precisely because we're well aware that we do not have the "magical psychic powers" that would be required to discern intent. (In other words, how the eff should I know if you're displaying the appearance of a feeling spontaneously out of unconscious emotionality, or in a coldly rational attempt to manipulate my cognition?) By that basic logic, you're simply wrong.

    Furthermore, it would require "magical psychic powers" for me to use the definition of "emoting" that you demand I use; and yet, you rail angrily against NFPs for supposedly presuming to that very fallacy. So, I'm forced to logically conclude that you're either projecting your own delusion upon us, or else attempting to place us in a double bind out of anger over some past offense by someone that you perceived as an NFP (possibly your mother or father). I shall allow you to tell me whether it is projection of delusion or displacement of anger, because I am merely logical, not endowed with the "magical psychic powers" that would be required to discern which one of those two possible motivations is your actual one.
    INFP ~ Fi/Ne/Ni/Te ~ 9-2-4 sp/so

  7. #27
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    The only problem I see with this is that for the NFs where it is worth your while to interact with on a continued basis (SO or work situation), you have stated (if I understood correctly) that you would use a different form of communication. Wouldn't that render the results of this prodding useless?
    No, not really. Depending on how ready to accept the subjectivity of his own perspective the NF might be, I can sometimes open up and explain more of this from a T perspective without upsetting them. Hell, some INFPs are actually open-minded enough to, you know, consider that there might be some value in what I'm saying.

    I have developed this rapport pretty well with a couple of INFPs. You may be surprised to hear that my roommate/best friend/drummer in two of my bands is a huge INFP--and I love him to death.


    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    I can assure you that this is one huge point of difference between NFs and NTs. Usually NFs are playing for real when they have a discussion. They do not tend to separate themselves from what they are saying. So you wouldn't see an NF poking or prodding someone like a science experiment to see how they'd react. This is why they assume that you are playing for real as well in this discussion. NTs on the other hand do not feel nearly so personally involved in a discussion, although their irritation at others becoming personally involved sometimes does have the effect of making them act (what appears to me) to be irritated and emotional.
    I dunno; the poking process seems to be rooted largely in Ne, so I've seen it come from all four NP types on numerous occasions.

    Wait wait, so you realize that NTs aren't very personally involved when they argue, regardless of the apparent "emotional quality" of their words?

    In that case I have to thank you for actively fighting this negative stereotype. Hats off to you!


    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    If you haven't discovered already, most people don't want to be your science experiment, so if they weren't mad during the discussion, they will be after they realize that they were merely a test project for you!
    Fair enough--I'm more careful about this in real life, but I do appreciate the advice.


    Quote Originally Posted by SciVo View Post
    To the rest of the human race, the recognition of whether or not someone is emoting is based on the appearance thereof, precisely because we're well aware that we do not have the "magical psychic powers" that would be required to discern intent. (In other words, how the eff should I know if you're displaying the appearance of a feeling spontaneously out of unconscious emotionality, or in a coldly rational attempt to manipulate my cognition?) By that basic logic, you're simply wrong.
    lol, "rest of the human race"...by that you mean what, INFPs? It's not the appearance of a feeling! You only consider it to be one because that's the mode of thinking you're most comfortable with--in truth, most times no emotion enters the picture until the Feeler decides it has. Thinkers write out our thoughts without really considering the emotional side in most cases; it doesn't gain the "emotive" quality until a Feeler arbitrarily decides it has.

    Or, according to the dictionary, when the SPEAKER decides it has. Since I rarely intend significant emotional impact in my words, it's obviously up to me (read: NOT YOU) whether or not I'm emoting when I am the one speaking.

    What basic logic? You're still mired in the idea that your perceptions of what speech is "emotional" and what speech is not is somehow objectively correct!



    Quote Originally Posted by SciVo View Post
    Furthermore, it would require "magical psychic powers" for me to use the definition of "emoting" that you demand I use; and yet, you rail angrily against NFPs for supposedly presuming to that very fallacy. So, I'm forced to logically conclude that you're either projecting your own delusion upon us, or else attempting to place us in a double bind out of anger over some past offense by someone that you perceived as an NFP (possibly your mother or father). I shall allow you to tell me whether it is projection of delusion or displacement of anger, because I am merely logical, not endowed with the "magical psychic powers" that would be required to discern which one of those two possible motivations is your actual one.
    Or...you could just try asking outright if the person is upset. That tends to work a lot more reliably than making an arbitrary assumption and then refusing to abandon it even when the speaker has corrected you to the contrary. That's denial if ever I've seen it.

    btw, my entire family is a bunch of Js, and only one of them (my mom) is even an F. She's ESFJ, and when she gets emotional it's typically because she doesn't think people are respecting her feelings--she'll critique me for not being attentive to HER emotional state, which is fair enough. SFs are quite good at this. Likewise, if an NF friend says to me, "Hey, it kind of feels hurtful to me when you do x, would you mind refraining from that?", chances are I'll comply. Given that this person is a known friend, I grant more leeway even in cases where I don't think it's necessarily logical--but as the typo-C NFP population, I don't really care much about most of you. (No offense; I'm sure the feeling is mutual.)

    But what SFs DON'T tend to do is project their arbitrary definitions of what constitutes "emotional speech" on anyone else--if my mom is uncertain as to whether or not I'm upset, she'll simply ask point blank. This works a hell of a lot better.

    So...why do you need to guess at whether or not I'm upset? Why don't you try just asking?

    And by the way, yes, I actually DO become angry when told repeatedly that someone can understand my perspective better than I understand it myself. That's absurd.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  8. #28
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Hey, hey, hey - how come Cze Cze got those quotes attributed to her? Those were all me in your last post, Mister!

  9. #29
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    You'd think Feelers would be able to empathize with how irritating it is when someone self-righteously suggests that he has magical psychic powers that tell him definitively what you're feeling, regardless of what you have to say about it.

    If Feelers want to be blunt back at me and say outright the things they dislike about Thinkers, then fair enough. Knock yourselves out--but please, please, PLEASE stop telling us you know our feelings better than we do. Simply by virtue of the fact that you are not us, you don't.
    No one says they know your feelings better than you do. But if you consistently get accused of being emotional when you are not, then your approach is clearly ineffective, and you think you'd use your oh so superior logic to see that and adjust it. Continuing to employ the same ineffective behavior suggests that you are not in as much control as you'd like to think.

    And there are general standards in society which do define the motivation behind certain actions/words (ie. if you slam a door, then you're probably angry). If you exhibit that behavior, then you cannot expect people to not interpret it based on those standards. If the issue is poor social and communication skills, well then, that is still your error.

    And yes, Thinkers do annoying things like assuming they know the reasons for your beliefs, which they think to be illogical. Most of the time, they are WRONG and your reasons are completely different and perfectly sound. So in a similar way, Thinkers seem to think that they know what and how Feelers reason. I'd say having to constantly explain your reasoning is probably a lot more tiring than denying emotion behind your words/behavior. Thinkers have this "guilty until proven innocent" attitude towards people who have different views from them. They assume illogic until it's broken down for them.

    Thinkers also assume there is emotion when there may not be. If an NF takes any offense at anything, it's assumed they are being sensitive and got their wittle feelings hurt. Maybe they are just mildly irritated too, hm?

    Based on much of what you write, you in particular have a very poor grasp of how Fi works. The whole rant on the Orthodox Muslim INFP scenario is ridiculous and has nothing to do with Fi in itself....
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  10. #30
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Yes, one thing I am learning on this forum is not to assume that NTs mean the same things as I would if I said the same thing. I really thought they were acting obtuse on purpose before when they didn't see why what they said would provoke an emotional response. I was also surprised to find out that they really don't seem to mind you asking why they are doing something you consider to be obnoxious (NFs generally wouldn't respond so well to that).

    You suggested Sim, to ask an NT if they are upset if you're not sure. Do you think there are ever occasions where they would deny it if they were, or deny emotion that was actually there? I can't imagine that they can be completely divorced from emotion ever creeping in if it were a topic that they had more than a clinical kind of interest in. Like during a fight with a SO for example.

    However, I think that OrangeAppled makes some good points here. I do think that Thinkers assume they understand NFPs reasons for their beliefs and exaggerate how emotional NFPs really may be. I think she is also right that society has assigned some language/actions with generally assumed meanings. Of course there are exceptions to the common usage, but the general population wil assume the main meaning first. Door slamming=anger. Use of F word, stupid, obnoxious, whiny and other perjoratives also usually is equated with anger. Same with capital letters when typing (or some other extreme emotion). So even if you don't feel that way, you are communicating that poorly to the general public, which will not achieve the goals you wish. Unless your goal is to provoke or be misunderstood!

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