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  1. #11
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SciVo View Post
    Dude. When you emote like a scenery-chewer, I'm going to take that to mean that you're freaking out. That's perception, not projection, and to resent it is ridiculous. If you don't want to be perceived as having strong feelings, then there's a very simple solution: don't act that way.
    Except it's NOT EMOTING! You are the source of the emotion, not us! The problem is that you can't let go of your sense that the way YOU define words and phrases is "objectively correct", so you give us this bone-stupid bullshit about how we should just "stop using language in ways that are obviously objectively wrong", and it's retarded.

    You may consider it obvious that x phrasing indicates y emotional state, but that is still a function of your perception.

    There's a far bigger language interpretation barrier between Ts and Fs than you might expect.

    But hey, why am I bothering? I'm sure I'm just empirically wrong here, since you're the definitive authority on how much emotional weight is carried by everyone else's words (not just your own.) Arrogance, arrogance, and more arrogance, all disguised in neat little sugar-coated passive-aggressive packages so that you can dodge responsibility for implying whatever you want. I don't buy it.



    Quote Originally Posted by sciski View Post
    Isn't this an example of poor skills (possibly over-arrogance) in Perceiving, not poor skills in Judging?

    It's both, actually. Ne imagines patterns that don't really exist and then Fi declares that they're due to [insert arbitrary emotional explanation here], and then worse yet, when we clarify that we aren't interpreting these words the same way you are, you tell us we're interpreting them "incorrectly" and that we need to line up with your clearly "correct" ideas about what emotional weight is contained in what words.

    And you're hilariously out of touch with how brutally hypocritical that is because so many of you (general you here regarding NFPs) are so far lost up your own asses that you can't even begin to consider the possibility that hey, maybe your interpretation isn't "correct" either!

    And if you had even a scrap of Ni you'd realize there's nothing even remotely objective about the emotional weight that anyone attaches to words, Thinker or Feeler.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  2. #12
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Don't I know that there is a far bigger language interpretation barrier between Ts and Fs than one might expect! This was a reoccuring problem between me (INFJ) and my ESTJ until I started understanding it better.

    Because you communicate much more bluntly, Fs are always going to assume that your capitalization, exclamation marks, use of the f word regarding Feelers and use of words like retarded, wrong, obviously, bullshit, retarded and stupid mean you feel rather strongly and emotionally about the point you are making and the audience it is directed at. This will be perceived as unfair and hasty, whether or not you mean it that way.

    I think it only makes sense once you do understand that your meaning is perceived differently to adjust your method of communication, just as Fs should also learn to adjust theirs around you. To me, your method of communication could easily be perceived as insulting and inflammatory, even if that is not what you intended.

    Understanding that and also being interested in logic and efficiency, wouldn't it make more sense to present your point in a way that wouldn't be perceived as readily that way, rather than having to wade through a minefield of misperception and emotion in your view? If I were posting on an NT forum, I too would understand that people are going to communicate with me more bluntly than I am used to and that I shouldn't take anything personally. I also would need to change my style of communicating my message. I'm not good at it yet, but I am working at it.

    Here's another example: As you know, in the UK the word randy commonly is understood to mean "horny". In Canada, it is a man's name. If I go to the UK and insist on naming my son Randy, should I be upset all the time that people perceive him to be named the equivalent of "Horny" and mock my decision? Of course not! Language and the use of it does matter, regardless of the speaker's intent.

  3. #13
    Senior Member SciVo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Except it's NOT EMOTING!
    Except that projecting emotional affect by "exaggerating and using colorful wordings and tones" is the very definition of emoting. So, you're objectively wrong, for which you will no doubt excoriate me in a way that purposely presents the appearance of strong emotion while explicitly denying the existence thereof. It reminds me of the ol' adolescent "[crying] I am not upset! [stamps foot]" and I'm rather losing patience with it. :rolleyes2:
    INFP ~ Fi/Ne/Ni/Te ~ 9-2-4 sp/so

  4. #14
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Don't I know that there is a far bigger language interpretation barrier between Ts and Fs than one might expect! This was a reoccuring problem between me (INFJ) and my ESTJ until I started understanding it better.

    Because you communicate much more bluntly, Fs are always going to assume that your capitalization, exclamation marks, use of the f word regarding Feelers and use of words like retarded, wrong, obviously, bullshit, retarded and stupid mean you feel rather strongly and emotionally about the point you are making and the audience it is directed at. This will be perceived as unfair and hasty, whether or not you mean it that way.
    You'd think Feelers would be able to empathize with how irritating it is when someone self-righteously suggests that he has magical psychic powers that tell him definitively what you're feeling, regardless of what you have to say about it.

    If Feelers want to be blunt back at me and say outright the things they dislike about Thinkers, then fair enough. Knock yourselves out--but please, please, PLEASE stop telling us you know our feelings better than we do. Simply by virtue of the fact that you are not us, you don't.

    When someone does that to me, I do tend to become upset and can get rather outwardly emotional. But this doesn't typically happen until someone starts insisting that s/he knows my emotions better I know them, so again it's a nasty self-fulfilling prophecy.

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    I think it only makes sense once you do understand that your meaning is perceived differently to adjust your method of communication, just as Fs should also learn to adjust theirs around you. To me, your method of communication could easily be perceived as insulting and inflammatory, even if that is not what you intended.
    Yes, and that's just what I do when I'm in a situation where it's important to maintain positive relations with the other party. It's reasonable to bend and adapt my approach for those situations.

    However, in forum situations like this where I don't really give two shits if the NFP-nut gallery never talks to me again (for half of them this would be a blessing), I'm going to be more blunt without much regard for whether or not anyone will be upset about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Understanding that and also being interested in logic and efficiency, wouldn't it make more sense to present your point in a way that wouldn't be perceived as readily that way, rather than having to wade through a minefield of misperception and emotion in your view? If I were posting on an NT forum, I too would understand that people are going to communicate with me more bluntly than I am used to and that I shouldn't take anything personally. I also would need to change my style of communicating my message. I'm not good at it yet, but I am working at it.
    Yes, context is very important--I was trying to illustrate this issue earlier with the example about the Muslim, but I got no response whatsoever (go figure.)

    I've tried diplomacy a number of times and by now I've become jaded enough to realize that most NFPs will never stop deluding themselves into pretending they have magical psychic powers, so I've just stopped caring.

    I think next time I'll start arbitrarily declaring all of their thought processes and then insist that my magic fairy familiar looks into her astrological crystals and sees their thoughts, and then tells me.

    You don't actually believe anything you said in this post; it's obvious that you're just incredibly upset and blatantly lying. Don't ask how I know that, though, because you wouldn't understand--just trust me when I say that I'm positive I know you better than you know yourself, so don't even pretend to contradict me or I'll just use it to further fulfill my silly little self-fulfilling prophecies.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  5. #15
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SciVo View Post
    Except that projecting emotional affect by "exaggerating and using colorful wordings and tones" is the very definition of emoting. So, you're objectively wrong, for which you will no doubt excoriate me in a way that purposely presents the appearance of strong emotion while explicitly denying the existence thereof. It reminds me of the ol' adolescent "[crying] I am not upset! [stamps foot]" and I'm rather losing patience with it. :rolleyes2:
    You don't actually believe any of this; my crystal balls tells me that you're lying.

    And no, I don't care what you have to say about your own ideas and feelings. You're wrong about your own beliefs, because I said so.

    P.S.,

    No, THIS is the definition of emoting:

    verb (used without object), e?mot?ed, e?mot?ing.
    1. to show or pretend emotion: to emote over the beauties of nature.
    2. to portray emotion in acting, esp. exaggeratedly or ineptly; behave theatrically: The actress emoted for all she was worth.

    Notice how both of these definitions require the speaker TO INTENTIONALLY PROJECT EMOTIONAL TONE? In both cases the speaker is intentionally attempting to color his tone with emotion--it's dependent upon the speaker, NOT the audience.

    So...in actuality whether or not one is "emoting" is dependent entirely upon one's own motivation, not upon arbitrary, so-called "objective" definitions by arrogant NFs who think their farts don't stink.

    For Ne+Ti, using colorful language is just another patterns game. We're just toying around with pieces to see what interesting results will come up, and you're characteristically reading waaaaaay too far into it, then making it even worse by refusing to believe our accounts of own perception.

    Might I ask you how the hell we're supposed to respond to that? Can you see why it makes us upset for you to do this?
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  6. #16
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    Okay, so if you understand this, why would you voluntarily persist in discussing this with people who will only irritate you and with whom you've chosen a method of communication (because of informal setting where future relations don't matter) that will only make them dig their heels in further? For an NT, this seems rather irrational, unless there is some benefit that I'm not seeing. If it were for the sake of convincing them for their benefit, it is not an effective way of going about it. If it is for the sake of debate, there is not going to be a consensus or positive discussion when presented in inflammatory terms (or if NFPs continue to think they know how you feel, which you've demonstrated they will and you find it aggravating). If it is to get them to admit they're wrong, you're stepping on their values so the chances of them acknowledging your rightness seems unlikely. If you've stopped caring altogether, why bother with this discussion at all? It is not my intent to insult you. I'd just like to understand what you see as being gained other than expressing frustration with NFs to an audience of NFs.

  7. #17
    RETIRED CzeCze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Actually, no, it's your problem for repeatedly misinterpreting this situation 99% of the time it comes up and apparently being so certain that your "feeling read" on others is always correct that you've managed to bury yourselves in some pretty deep denial on this one. Doesn't it strike you as a bit odd that zero NTs agree with you about this, and that NFs are the only people who seem to believe it?


    Um...are you talking about "me" personally when you say "you" or do you mean "NFs" in general?

    Honestly, I have no idea what you are talking about here. What is it that NFs are agreeing with "me" on that NTs aren't?

    Misinterpreting what situation 99% of the time?

    Sim...do you even know who you're talking to right now? Or do you think every XNFP is part of some collective NF hive with shared mind-speak?

    I believe this thread is the first time I'v ever even 'spoken' to you directly about NFs... So all this other stuff you're bringing up just makes me think that maybe you've confused me with some other XNFPs that you've spoken to? You know, we have "usernames" so you can keep track of us.

    PS My username is not 'Heart'

    But of course I'm sure you wouldn't know anything about that, now would you?
    Damn you're a presumptuous mofo! LOL.

    Are you referring to a specific conversation or specific thread that I posted in? Or do you actually think you "know" me (you know, like in a non WoW server way) and how I operate and relate irl because I'm XNFP and you know our horribly biased ways?

    Don't you think that's ironic after all this hootin' and hollerin' about how you and all your fellow T's are misunderstood..by "me" (collective or otherwise)?

    I'm not saying that NTs never get emotional--obviously we do; it's just that our ranges of emotion are much smaller than yours and we don't attach the same emotional value to language that you do, and you guys really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really need to stop projecting "WELL I WOULD HAVE TO BE REALLY UPSET TO SAY THOSE THINGS SO OBVIOUSLY U ARE LOL" onto us, because I think I speak for most Ts when I say we're pretty fucking sick of your crap.
    No, I think it's just you. Maybe you should take up yoga.

    Srsly though, obviously you like to take it upon yourself to speak for all ENTPs, or NTPs, or Ts. I generally don't. When I wrote my original post, I wasn't speaking on behalf of ENFPs or NFPs or Fs.

    Here's a great example in the very paragraph above--you probably think that sounds overtly emotional. NTPs in particular ENJOY EXXAGERATING and using colorful wordings and tones because they tend to feel that exaggeration is an effective tool in illustrating their points, NOT BECAUSE THEY ARE CRYING ON THE INSIDE. In actuality I'm merely annoyed at a perceived logical inconsistency, not having an episode of raging bipolar disorder, but feel free to pretend my words mean whatever you've arbitrarily decided they mean.
    Okay. You're an asshole. Feel better?

    Oh wait, wait:

    YoU. aRe. An. AsZhOle. AAAAAAAY!



    You're the expert on my feelings, after all.
    Yes I am! Thanks!

    I need to inform you that you are madly in love with me. You feel a searing desire to send me your credit card numbers, ATM pin, and social security number. I'll PM you my email addy.

    Seriously Sim, I had no idea your complex about NFs was this big. You completely took my words and instead of taking them in their proper context and meaning, you heard the voice of a thousand (other) NFs in your head. You really assumed the hell out of what I was saying and you further assumed how I would react to you.

    So basically...dood...what's your problem? LOL. I wasn't even necessarily disagreeing et. al. with your post.

    It's hard to have a conversation with you if you are so gripped by your bias or own ideas of NFs and project them onto me and assume before hand how I'm going to interpret or react to you.

    Try again?


    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    I'll tell you, Heart, I'm going to be vaguely annoyed that I wasted my time trying to describe this concept if you simply shrug it off with no attempt at a coherent response.
    And now I'm just insulted. What, you don't wanna talk to me anymore?
    “If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.” ― Oscar Wilde

    "I'm outtie 5000" ― Romulux

    Johari/Nohari

  8. #18
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    Okay, so if you understand this, why would you voluntarily persist in discussing this with people who will only irritate you and with whom you've chosen a method of communication (because of informal setting where future relations don't matter) that will only make them dig their heels in further? For an NT, this seems rather irrational, unless there is some benefit that I'm not seeing. If it were for the sake of convincing them for their benefit, it is not an effective way of going about it. If it is for the sake of debate, there is not going to be a consensus or positive discussion when presented in inflammatory terms (or if NFPs continue to think they know how you feel, which you've demonstrated they will and you find it aggravating). If it is to get them to admit they're wrong, you're stepping on their values so the chances of them acknowledging your rightness seems unlikely. If you've stopped caring altogether, why bother with this discussion at all? It is not my intent to insult you. I'd just like to understand what you see as being gained other than expressing frustration with NFs to an audience of NFs.
    It's ok; I don't feel insulted.

    It's mainly just poking and prodding to see what I can find out about how NFs will respond...I use this forum largely to experiment with new approaches with certain types so that I can get an idea of how it might work out if I were to try it with a real person in real life. (Evidently this approach didn't work too well...but I did learn from it, so I got what I wanted.)

    I doubt that any of you will actually change your minds on this; that's not really what I'm looking for. I want to see what defenses and rationale you have for this behavior so that I can incorporate that into my decision-making regarding interactions with real NFs in my real life.


    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post


    Um...are you talking about "me" personally when you say "you" or do you mean "NFs" in general?
    Nothing here is directed at you personally unless noted specifically.


    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    Honestly, I have no idea what you are talking about here. What is it that NFs are agreeing with "me" on that NTs aren't?

    Misinterpreting what situation 99% of the time?

    Sim...do you even know who you're talking to right now? Or do you think every XNFP is part of some collective NF hive with shared mind-speak?
    I'm talking about the belief that when NTs complain about things being illogical that they're being influenced more by hidden emotion than by desire for logical consistency. I find it a little strange that NFs seem to be the only people who support this idea. SFs are just as emotional but what I like about them is that they're more focused on making their own emotional states known than they are on projecting them onto others or universalizing them.


    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    I believe this thread is the first time I'v ever even 'spoken' to you directly about NFs... So all this other stuff you're bringing up just makes me think that maybe you've confused me with some other XNFPs that you've spoken to? You know, we have "usernames" so you can keep track of us.
    Wow, you interpreted it personally? No way!


    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    PS My username is not 'Heart'
    Oh crap, I forgot I'm illiterate.




    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    Damn you're a presumptuous mofo! LOL.
    Again, not you personally...this is a common NF habit and while I have no evidence to indicate that you personally practice it, I expect given your obvious proficiency in Ne/Fi you are familiar with this tactic, even if you don't use it.


    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    Are you referring to a specific conversation or specific thread that I posted in? Or do you actually think you "know" me (you know, like in a non WoW server way) and how I operate and relate irl because I'm XNFP and you know our horribly biased ways?

    Don't you think that's ironic after all this hootin' and hollerin' about how you and all your fellow T's are misunderstood..by "me" (collective or otherwise)?
    I don't know much of anything at all about you, nor do I purport to. I'm speaking in generalities based on my own observations of NFPs--there's no evidence to indicate that any of this applies to you personally, so I'm sorry if it came off that way.




    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    No, I think it's just you. Maybe you should take up yoga.

    Srsly though, obviously you like to take it upon yourself to speak for all ENTPs, or NTPs, or Ts. I generally don't. When I wrote my original post, I wasn't speaking on behalf of ENFPs or NFPs or Fs.
    I don't feel it necessary to defend my assertion that many Ts share my frustrations on this issue.




    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    Okay. You're an asshole. Feel better?

    Oh wait, wait:

    YoU. aRe. An. AsZhOle. AAAAAAAY!

    lol k




    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    Yes I am! Thanks!
    I sincerely hope that's sarcasm.


    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    I need to inform you that you are madly in love with me. You feel a searing desire to send me your credit card numbers, ATM pin, and social security number. I'll PM you my email addy.
    Now, if only I actually had any money to give you.


    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    Seriously Sim, I had no idea your complex about NFs was this big. You completely took my words and instead of taking them in their proper context and meaning, you heard the voice of a thousand (other) NFs in your head. You really assumed the hell out of what I was saying and you further assumed how I would react to you.
    Not really; this is much bigger than just CzeCze. I don't really know or care how CzeCze personally behaves in social situations, nor do I find it relevant to the topic at hand.

    And the part about the complex...I wonder if you realize how profoundly ironic this is.


    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    So basically...dood...what's your problem? LOL. I wasn't even disagreeing with a lot of what you were saying.
    No problem with you, really. I think we did agree on a number of points and that's fine.


    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    It's hard to have a conversation with you if you are so gripped by your bias or own ideas of NFs and project them onto me and assume before hand how I'm going to interpret or react to you.

    Try again?
    I was speaking largely in the "general you" toward NFPs as a whole. Perhaps I didn't make this clear.





    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    And now I'm just insulted. What, you don't wanna talk to me anymore?
    You're a lot more fun than Heart, that's for sure.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  9. #19
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
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    The only problem I see with this is that for the NFs where it is worth your while to interact with on a continued basis (SO or work situation), you have stated (if I understood correctly) that you would use a different form of communication. Wouldn't that render the results of this prodding useless?

    I can assure you that this is one huge point of difference between NFs and NTs. Usually NFs are playing for real when they have a discussion. They do not tend to separate themselves from what they are saying. So you wouldn't see an NF poking or prodding someone like a science experiment to see how they'd react. This is why they assume that you are playing for real as well in this discussion. NTs on the other hand do not feel nearly so personally involved in a discussion, although their irritation at others becoming personally involved sometimes does have the effect of making them act (what appears to me) to be irritated and emotional.

    If you haven't discovered already, most people don't want to be your science experiment, so if they weren't mad during the discussion, they will be after they realize that they were merely a test project for you!

  10. #20
    Revelation Lauren Ashley's Avatar
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    Another thread turns into a T vs. F debate. Not. at. all. interested. And this was a great thread idea to start.

    CzeCze, you're a mod. Thread split?

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