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  1. #111
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    No, that's wrong. Fe is more concerned with what the external cultural environment considers to be appropriate behavior.

    Fi is concerned with what it itself has arbitrarily decided is appropriate behavior, and BOTH will nastily correct you when they feel you've violated this.

    The only difference is that Fe's morality comes from without, and Fi's comes from within.
    Actually, I disagree here. Both modes of feeling come from within. The difference is that Fe users don't want to miss environmental factors before making their value judgments (if you miss something, what's the point of going in depth?), whereas Fi users don't want to be distracted by the environment (they want to go as in depth as possible...what does the current situation matter to what's right?).

  2. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    If you think Fi doesn't passive-aggressively shove its moral opinions in people's faces, I'd buy yourself a new mirror.
    I do it pretty assertively, not so much passively, that's what I said in my first post. I don't need a new mirror. I know how I am.




    Again, not buying it. You guys could learn a lot more from NFJs than you allow yourselves to.
    Um, yeah, no. If you prefer NFJs that's cool and all, I don't have a problem with them, but yeah, no.






    This is the kind of pointless and petty crap that pushes NTs into being terse with you...if you know what we meant, stop wasting our time with bullshit semantics corrections.))
    Actually I've had much more semantics, not to mention spelling and grammar, corrections with NTJs.

    This also smacks of "but you make me hit you!"

    Sometimes it seems like you know that you've done such a poor job of refuting our relevant points that the only way you can feel like you've gained some small measure of victory is to pick a clearly generalized statement and start semantic-ing all over it, just to make it look like you can find SOMETHING wrong with our position (so that you don't look/feel stupid.) I would tend to chalk this up to tertiary/inferior Te coming out and over-correcting without any sense of context or degree, because the NFP has become upset and can't find any relevant criticisms...but there could be other reasons for it, which I'll be glad to listen to if you should desire to explain.

    Is it truly your contention that there is no significant correlation between NFP-ness and pretentious liberalism?
    You are really on an NFP hate-fest this week. My original post had a tone of humor. You really are venting. K. That's cool. Nothing wrong with venting. I'm out.

  3. #113

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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Economics is the biggest one, but also social issues.

    The conservative attitude of "Well, everyone is his own responsibility, so if you need help it's not my problem!" is waaaaaaaay more characteristic of Ts than Fs...by a long shot. This has enormous implications in economics.

    As for social issues, NPs are extraordinarily biased toward liberal social policy because personal freedom of expression is held so highly on Ne's value list...this is an example of one that falls on the P/J dichotomy more than on N/S or T/F, because it's a question of organization/regulation of the external world, so obviously Js will go for it more often.

    Then you've got things like civil rights. Feelers in general are far more likely to listen to arguments based on compassion, such as, "Put yourself in these people's shoes--wouldn't you hate to be them?"

    For Fi, this is often enough. Look at the completely outrageous outpouring of blind support that Barack Obama gets from NFPs--ZOMG HE IS A MAN OF CHANGE HE WILL LEAD US TO THE FUTURE!!!

    Well, maybe he will, maybe he won't--I haven't fully made up my mind about the guy yet. I liked him a little bit better than McCain, so yes, I did vote for him, but I don't verbally fellate him every time he comes up in conversation and implicitly insult anyone in the room who doesn't automatically think he's a fucking Godsend.

    The problem is that NFPs often either don't realize they're doing this, or, worse yet--convince themselves it's justified because "MY MORAL OPINIONS ARE RIGHT AND THEIRS ARE WRONG!" This leads to a lot of extremely hypocritical labeling of non-Obama supporters as ignorant racist intolerant bigots who hate change--yes, the left does just as much bullshit emotional blackmail as the right.

    Again, South Park says it best--liberals (and yes, NFPs lean more liberal than any other type group) still seem to believe their moral causes are the only ones that are somehow "too sacred" to be mocked. The sheer self-righteousness and total obliviousness to the possibility of being wrong are really what sicken me most.



    I think NFPs place externalized, individual creative freedom and maintaining the most internally consistent ethical viewpoint as the two highest values; which is higher depends on E/I.

    Much like NTPs, this leads to some nasty cognitive dissonance whenever it's suggested that their position is not internally consistent...hence the insistence that OMG WE DO *NOT* TAKE THINGS TOO PERSONALLY, I RESENT THAT!

    NPs have a very strong need to feel internally consistent according whichever system of rationality they feel most comfortable with (Fi or Ti), and they're often so unable to even consider the idea that their opinions on what is ethical/logical behavior even are opinions that their own views on internally "important" issues are often considered as incontrovertible fact.

    They balance out this image, of course, by showing a very flexible attitude on lots of other things, like outer world schedules and trivial decisions that don't really affect anything that serious. "Sure we can go to the movie any time!" seems to be enough flexibility for NPs, regardless of how ludicrously stubborn the internal Fi/Ti monologue may be about anything that's truly important.

    But they don't look that way on the surface to most outsiders--most outsiders only the see flexible Ne side, which is willing to indulge all kinds of ideas and go with the flow. In terms of self-image, NPs overestimate their own reliance on this side of themselves--they use "well hey everybody sees me as open and flexible" as a way to convince themselves that they aren't actually too internally rigid.

    "My internal perspective isn't too rigid, I'M JUST RIGHT!"

    lol.

    Anyway I've written a million other posts on the topic so you can find them if you want.
    Thanks, just wanted a clarifier . I agree on us being more about liberalism than most. I doubt we do it that blindly though. I might not know enough of my type and there may be a whole world of activist ENFPs out there on moral missions, I just tend to think of us as non-committal on most things, and more concerned with learning and understanding than any real cause. I don't really weigh in on politics. I have philosophical views on things, but politics always seemed like a whole lot of groupings that don't make much sense. I agree with some parts of them all and disagree with lots of other parts. I even view my heroes as human, so I doubt I'd ever consider a man, especially a politician, to be the second coming. I will say with respect to Obama, I like the fact he is there, because he is not George Bush or Hillary, doesn't seem like being a dictator of any kind (yet), is reasonably good willed, and he is decently educated. These things give me some confidence he might make decent decisions. When he looks like he is not good willed, or he starts damaging things, then I will not support him.
    Freude, schöner Götterfunken Tochter aus Elysium, Wir betreten feuertrunken, Himmlische, dein Heiligtum! Deine Zauber binden wieder Was die Mode streng geteilt; Alle Menschen werden Brüder, Wo dein sanfter Flügel weilt.

  4. #114

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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    You are really on an NFP hate-fest this week. My original post had a tone of humor. You really are venting. K. That's cool. Nothing wrong with venting. I'm out.
    Isn't the first thing you do when you read an INFP post, look for the underlying humour? It's sort of good people miss it though. My best mate used to have me on the floor laughing, while others were still taking him seriously. By the way, I'm pretty sure you are INFP not E.
    Freude, schöner Götterfunken Tochter aus Elysium, Wir betreten feuertrunken, Himmlische, dein Heiligtum! Deine Zauber binden wieder Was die Mode streng geteilt; Alle Menschen werden Brüder, Wo dein sanfter Flügel weilt.

  5. #115
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    Actually, I disagree here. Both modes of feeling come from within. The difference is that Fe users don't want to miss environmental factors before making their value judgments (if you miss something, what's the point of going in depth?), whereas Fi users don't want to be distracted by the environment (they want to go as in depth as possible...what does the current situation matter to what's right?).
    Fair.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  6. #116
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    I do it pretty assertively, not so much passively, that's what I said in my first post. I don't need a new mirror. I know how I am.
    If you don't think Fi enforces its moral opinions on people/suffers from delusions of pure objectivity, you do need a new mirror.





    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    Um, yeah, no. If you prefer NFJs that's cool and all, I don't have a problem with them, but yeah, no.
    Maybe if you had any idea what I'm talking about or why this is valuable you wouldn't run around making silly claims like that your Ni just as good as your Ne.

    It's not; you still don't even know what Ni is, but don't let that stop you. I'm sure you've got all figured it out already and there's nothing NFJs could possibly teach you.








    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    Actually I've had much more semantics, not to mention spelling and grammar, corrections with NTJs.

    This also smacks of "but you make me hit you!"
    Because there's no way you can be doing it unintentionally, after a while. My mom always refers to Kroger as "Kroger's", for instance, and even though I know that's not technically the name, I know my mom well enough to know what she's talking about, so I don't waste everyone's time correcting dumb semantics.

    It's obvious when NTs say "I'm tired of [x group of people]", they're not referring to EVERY SINGLE SPECIFIC PERSON IN THAT GROUP, but rather to a general observed trend.

    The fact that you make us point this out every single time we do it is what bothers us so much, especially given that we KNOW you understand what we mean.



    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    You are really on an NFP hate-fest this week. My original post had a tone of humor. You really are venting. K. That's cool. Nothing wrong with venting. I'm out.
    It's both sad and ironic that you're interpreting it as hatred, because you're completely wrong and simultaneously proving my point.

    Ciao.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  7. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    If you don't think Fi enforces its moral opinions on people/suffers from delusions of pure objectivity, you do need a new mirror.







    Maybe if you had any idea what I'm talking about or why this is valuable you wouldn't run around making silly claims like that your Ni just as good as your Ne.

    It's not; you still don't even know what Ni is, but don't let that stop you. I'm sure you've got all figured it out already and there's nothing NFJs could possibly teach you.










    Because there's no way you can be doing it unintentionally, after a while. My mom always refers to Kroger as "Kroger's", for instance, and even though I know that's not technically the name, I know my mom well enough to know what she's talking about, so I don't waste everyone's time correcting dumb semantics.

    It's obvious when NTs say "I'm tired of [x group of people]", they're not referring to EVERY SINGLE SPECIFIC PERSON IN THAT GROUP, but rather to a general observed trend.

    The fact that you make us point this out every single time we do it is what bothers us so much, especially given that we KNOW you understand what we mean.





    It's both sad and ironic that you're interpreting it as hatred, because you're completely wrong and simultaneously proving my point.

    Ciao.

    You're really angry. And wrong on some points. But you're so convinced that you're right! You're doing exactly what you're accusing us of. It's ridiculous.

    But I'll hug you anyway.

  8. #118
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    sigh.

    I'm reminded of that Kierkegaard quote in Heart's signature.

    I see one of two possibilities here:

    A) You realize this last post is exactly the kind of thing that pisses NTs off and you want a chuckle,

    or

    B) You genuinely don't realize what you've done here, which would be a lot worse.

    I sincerely hope the correct answer is A.

    But hey, maybe you can figure out all the implications with your apparently stellar Ni!
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  9. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    sigh.

    I'm reminded of that Kierkegaard quote in Heart's signature.
    I mean, this whole thing about you telling me that you know that my Ni and Ne aren't close is preposterous.

    You don't even know me.

    What is your problem, Simulated? Are you just a shit stirrer?

    Cuz I'm not a bit flustered or upset. Just confused by your tenacity to be right in this thread.

  10. #120
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    Oh, and yes, my original intent was to chuckle. Good observation about that. You at least get to be right about one thing.

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