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  1. #91
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    lolwut?
    When the topic at hand tends to divide across T/F lines, NFs will naturally tend to side with the F sentiment and Ts with the T one.

    She was arguing that NFs stick up for NTs a lot, and I was saying that this is generally only true in situations where the topic tends to divide across N/S lines (or P/J lines if they share that letter too), putting us naturally on the same side.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  2. #92
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Uh huh, and that's why it's particularly annoying when NFPs are too dense to realize that their personal communication standards should NOT somehow be universalized upon society. (I thought you didn't like pushing your values on people?)

    Yes, and NFPs are often guilty of grossly misrepresenting their own personal ethical standards as somehow universal in society. In fact, your interpretations of emotional implications are not nearly as ubiquitous as you seem to enjoy convincing yourselves they are.

    I'm not assuming that I know your reasoning; that's why I've asked you to explain it, and unfortunately it's adding more weight to my prior suspicion that most of you don't really realize how much you project your ethics on everyone else implicitly while outwardly preaching tolerance and open-mindedness. It's hypocritical and frustrating.

    Because the idea that we're behaving emotionally is purely a function of your perception.

    The fact that you still refuse to acknowledge this is highly indicative of inability to separate your own ethical standards (Fi) from universal standards that apply everywhere (Ne.)

    I disagree. These social standards are most certainly not set by Fi-doms. If anything, it's Fe-doms who set these standards. INFPs have to learn to finesses their communication also. Personally, I have been accused of being abrasive and hostile at times when I am not feeling that way, because I did not express it in the "right" manner. Instead of blaming others for their misinterpretation, I have learned to adjust my style, including smiling more so as not to appear upset when I am not. Etiquette is not Fi's area of ethical expertise.

    This is why I can say with confidence that NT issues in this area are likely be to due to poor communication skills. I've seen with my eyes how they fail to meet social etiquette in their expression, and you even admit that ENTPs come off as "insane" to people sometimes.

    If the NT doesn't want to have emotions ascribed to him that he does not possess in the moment, then he needs to take some responsibility in the manner he expresses himself.

    As far as being accused of expressing emotions you do not have even after explaining the misunderstanding, I also suspect these NFs have found your weak spot and sadistically enjoy pushing that button to get a reaction out of you, much as NTs like to ruffle NF feathers with little "experiments" .

    You may not assume you know an NF's reasoning, but I've seen many NTs who do take that approach. Just as many of these scenarios you present about NFPs are foreign to me (especially the degree of pettiness you describe).

    Now a scenario for you, showing an NT's inability to see how his approach would make someone think he is emotional (angry in this case).

    NT: I hate people in California, they are all scum!
    NF: No, we're not!
    NT: I didn't say YOU were.
    NF: I live in CA, and so do all of my friends/family. It was implied.
    NT: You're such a stupid c*nt.
    NF: What is wrong with you? What are you so angry for?
    NT: I'm not angry. I'm just joking. Stop being so sensitive.

    Because it's hilarious to call a woman a c*nt? I mean, how socially stupid can you be....


    Weren't you just telling me that there's a time and a place for such things? We don't think ethics are a total non-issue; we just really don't want to hear about it in the middle of a discussion where the context has been particularly defined otherwise.
    And didn't I just tell you that ethics are never a irrelevant for an NF? Ethics are the core of every issue. I don't see how something can be logical and exclude them. I suppose if you said directly to not include ethics, then that should be followed, but I have a feeling the wording used is something like "logical arguments only"...see below.


    Since the discussion has been defined in an emotional context, it's my responsibility to recognize that a purely logical approach is not appropriate and respond thusly.
    You're confusing Fi with emotion again. Ethics can be very logical, and there's nothing necessarily being violated to include them in a logical argument. As for ethics being objective or subjective, that in itself is an argument.


    The problem with INFPs is that you don't ever seem to recognize that any contexts where Fi is inappropriate even exist at all, and when people point out to you that hey, maybe a more impersonal approach would work in this case, you just insist that we're attacking your feelings and then everything goes to shit.
    Fi essentially is the INFP person....so that person shouldn't exist in some circumstances? Whaaaa?
    Maybe the reason they are getting mad is because you're invalidating their viewpoint and entire existence....

    If you want NTs to see the personal side, you need to work on seeing the impersonal side at the same time. "But I'm a Feeler so I just CAN'T ever separate my feelings from anything for even a moment!" is really not an excuse.
    Again, feeling in the MBTI sense and emotions are not the same thing. I explained before how INFPs are capable of separating emotions from their thought process. Ethics is a different story.


    and if anybody questions it, they tend to just get shot down as "intolerant" or "ignorant" or some other subtly condescending shot that, again, sharply criticizes while allowing the INFP to dodge responsibility for the maliciousness.

    At least NTs will tell you outright if they think you're an asshole. It's this childish back-handed shit that really gets me.
    This is really a matter of perspective. I think calling someone a name like "asshole" is more childish. I think "intolerant" or "ignorant" is cutting closer to the reason why the NF is upset. Maybe it's not true, but that's how they see it and why they are mad. I would see that as a direct slap declaring war, not as a subtle, back-handed insult.

    And once again, INFPs CAN be questioned and criticized; it's a matter of approach.

    I'm sure they are, and the fact that self-improvement is so important ironically ends up shutting people off to the idea of improvement in the area of not taking criticism too personally. It's a vicious cycle.
    No, it doesn't have to result in that. INFPs can thicken their skin. It's hard since our makeup is inherently idealistic and sensitive, but there can be improvements. However, if they start brushing off your criticism as "ignorant", then you can't get annoyed - I mean, the INFP can't win either way then

    On a side note, another INFP mistake I've noticed is mistaking simple economics for a personal attack and going on a moral crusade against it--for instance, I knew an INFP girl who was certain that corporate America intentionally lowballs women's salaries because corporate leaders are all sexist pigs who personally hate women and their feelings, not really realizing that this is just a function of economics and that EVERYONE'S salary gets lowballed as much as the employer can get away with, because that makes the most money. It's called haggling, but by God don't try and tell that to an angry INFP who's certain she's being oppressed by the man! Women simply don't stand up for themselves as often--again, simple economics get twisted into an emotionally charged personal attack because Fi doesn't understand external context.
    I agree with you about low-balling, but I would ask you to ponder why women don't stand up for themselves as often....then you start to get into matters of gender inequality, and the value placed on each gender. See, always more to the story than simple logic.

    My example would be the weight loss issue. NTs often spout off "just eat less calories than you burn" as the logical way, and while that is true, they leave out many other variables. The external environment promotes an unhealthy lifestyle (sedentary jobs, convenient & cheap junk food), and so losing weight is also a battle against society. Then there's eating out of emotion (stress, upset, celebration) and getting feelings under control. This is where the NF understanding of human emotion and workings comes into play in an argument, and why it is valid. It actually reveals more of the picture.

    Why exactly is it that you still think I'm looking for a pissing match about which types have more unhealthy people?
    I'm not. I am tempering your criticism by pointing out that INFP flaws are not any worse than other people's flaws.

    Maybe; I much prefer criticizing INFJs though because they're much more capable of breaking out of their own perspectives. They'll probably shoot you down at first, but after they have their little J bitch time, they'll give your ideas the utmost unbiased consideration in most cases.

    INFPs often just skip the whole unbiased consideration and go straight into self-righteous pissy mode because the whole world isn't bending to their personal ideas on ethics.
    No, we act out emotionally first and become defensive, then we give it consideration later. I've emphasized that several times. Again, the gentler your approach, the more likely they will be to consider it.

    Did you copy/paste some of this from a previous thread? It sounds familiar.
    No, I just repeat myself a lot I guess :P

    Unfortunately when you get upset your "warning signs" are often just rude passive-aggression. If you tell a Thinker, "Listen, I don't want to talk about this because I don't think I can discuss it impersonally right now" instead of making some silly little sarcastic jab about what a moron he is when it comes to respecting people's feelings, you'll get a much better response as well.
    It doesn't lead to nearly as much probing as the aforementioned passive-aggressive approach.
    I acknowledged that it's a better approach, and I explained the INFP perspective in their default approach, and that is to avoid dreaded confrontation. If often does work with other people who are more sensitive to a person's emotions. Since that is not an NT's area of expertise, then the NF does need to learn to be direct.

    I think we're going round and round on some things here....

    How would you suggest I word this without coming off as implying that the INFP is being too emotional? I find myself having to walk on eggshells with them a lot because one wrong word triggers an emotional outburst and then the whole vibe of that day's work is ruined.
    If an INFP is having regular emotional outbursts, then he must be under a lot of stress. At my last job, they joked that I did not even speak for the first year there. It takes a lot of energy for an INFP to emote that much.

    Anyway, something as simple as:
    "This is getting stressful. Do you want to take a break and get coffee (or whatever)? When we come back, we might have a clearer perspective on the music. "
    Or maybe suggest sleeping on it, depending on how worked up the INFP is.

    You need to show concern. Using "we" is the pretty typical way to diffuse a touchy person. It says, "Hey, I am on your side, and I am here to support you, not fight you." That makes a person trust you and let down the defensive attitude. They become more open to hearing your perspective. Yeah, it's cheesey and people make fun of the "we" approach all the time, but there's a reason why it's associated with psychologists trying calm people down.

    Don't think they won't know that you really mean "You seem stressed out. You need perspective" and that they'll think it's you who needs it (if that idea bothers you). It's simply less inflammatory for you to do it in a "we" way, for the reasons I mentioned.

    Does this not seem a little questionable? Fi is just so far out in self-absorbed imagination land here that it has no idea that any other value system is even worth any consideration--how the fuck do you communicate with someone like that?
    This person was angry and grasping at straws to justify his behavior. If his Fi is healthy at all, then he hopefully reflected on it later and realized he acted stupidly.

    The INFP sensitivity taken to the extreme isn't pretty, but I wouldn't say it's typical Fi to be quite that petty.


    because in this society, being too emotional tends to work out better than not being emotional enough, so maybe the INFPs have the right idea here.
    Generally, INFPs are not emotional in the way society desires. Society desires Fe, not Fi. INFPs can seem aloof on the surface, and many complain they give off a cold impression at first. Plus, sensitivity is seen as a weakness, even thought it goes hand-in-hand with strengths like compassion. You end up with INFP women who seem cold and uptight and INFP men who seem like the wimpy sensitive guy.

    Whooooooa there, slow down little buddy...ENTPs are often among the most introverted of E types because we constantly have to be careful not to open our mouths in the wrong context for fear of appearing absolutely insane. Not to mention our learning process sucks because we never understand until we've fucked everything up completely beyond all recognition and rebuilt it from the ground up--this is NOT fun in most cases.
    This is true, but off the bat ENTPs seem outgoing and funny in a laid-back manner. From my perspective, ENTPs don't seem introverted, but from another E's perspective they might.

    My ENTP dad is quite likable at first, but upon closer examination he's impossible to deal with. Most people just see the surface of you though, so functioning in society is easier when the surface is palatable. INFPs don't have the most appealing surface (bland, aloof, etc).

    Sure, if it's a topic where the intuitive viewpoints line up. I've rarely ever seen an NF defend an NT in a T vs. F kind of situation though; it's usually just on S/N debates.
    I see it all the time. NFs will defend NTs as not being robots and stuff like that. You hear more admiration coming from the NF camp towards the NT camp than the other way around.

    We wouldn't have any real need to criticize you most of the time if you didn't stop expecting us (and everyone else) to appreciate or exercise Fi on the same level of proficiency that you do.
    Well I certainly don't expect people to use Fi as I do, and MBTI definitely clarifies the differences in perspective. INFPs usually express feeling odd and out of place, so I can't say that we expect everyone to see through our eyes.

    As far as appreciating Fi, well, everyone wants to be appreciated on some level, and no one wants to be misunderstood and have their very essence degraded.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  3. #93
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    I disagree. These social standards are most certainly not set by Fi-doms. If anything, it's Fe-doms who set these standards. INFPs have to learn to finesses their communication also. Personally, I have been accused of being abrasive and hostile at times when I am not feeling that way, because I did not express it in the "right" manner. Instead of blaming others for their misinterpretation, I have learned to adjust my style, including smiling more so as not to appear upset when I am not. Etiquette is not Fi's area of ethical expertise.
    Correct--those societal standards are NOT set by Fi doms, and yet for some reason INFPs seem to think they are. Just like NTPs tend to treat anyone who doesn't follow their arbitrary conceptions of logic like shit through subtle condescension and general snobbery, so too do NFPs become very nasty (though never overtly) to anyone perceived as out of touch with their clearly objective definitions of how to treat people ethically.

    Etiquette as defined by external societal standards may be an Fe thing, but Fi's ethics covers every area of life. Fi users won't complain that your etiquette is poor; they'll just subtly imply that you're an ignorant neanderthal. Sometimes when talking to NF liberals, for instance, there's this kind of, "My GOD, do they even LET people like you INTO this country??" undertone any time anyone expresses any conservative viewpoint, but never overtly enough that they can't get out of it when they want to. I've even had INFP friends explain to me precisely how this technique works, so even if you don't use it personally, it's still widespread.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    This is why I can say with confidence that NT issues in this area are likely be to due to poor communication skills. I've seen with my eyes how they fail to meet social etiquette in their expression, and you even admit that ENTPs come off as "insane" to people sometimes.

    If the NT doesn't want to have emotions ascribed to him that he does not possess in the moment, then he needs to take some responsibility in the manner he expresses himself.
    You have a point in theory; however, I do believe you tend to imagine more emotion in our words than is actually present (which is admittedly difficult given the ENT penchant for exaggeration), and once you've gotten to know us it seems like you might be able to predict this--though the opposite criticism also applies. I'm wondering if this whole issue is really solvable because it seems like I would have to actively squelch a good portion of my true personality to appease Fi here, and I'm not sure if I'm willing to do that for extended lengths of time.

    Come to think of it, you're right that INTs don't really do this exaggeration thing--I've come to the conclusion it must be mainly an ENT thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    As far as being accused of expressing emotions you do not have even after explaining the misunderstanding, I also suspect these NFs have found your weak spot and sadistically enjoy pushing that button to get a reaction out of you, much as NTs like to ruffle NF feathers with little "experiments" .
    Yeah I think I mentioned that in my last post; agreed.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    You may not assume you know an NF's reasoning, but I've seen many NTs who do take that approach. Just as many of these scenarios you present about NFPs are foreign to me (especially the degree of pettiness you describe).
    Yup.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    Now a scenario for you, showing an NT's inability to see how his approach would make someone think he is emotional (angry in this case).

    NT: I hate people in California, they are all scum!
    NF: No, we're not!
    NT: I didn't say YOU were.
    NF: I live in CA, and so do all of my friends/family. It was implied.
    NT: You're such a stupid c*nt.
    NF: What is wrong with you? What are you so angry for?
    NT: I'm not angry. I'm just joking. Stop being so sensitive.

    Because it's hilarious to call a woman a c*nt? I mean, how socially stupid can you be....
    I can interpret that first statement for you: It actually means, "I am irritated with a general trend in the people of California doing a number of things that bug the crap out of me." I actually get into this argument all the time but rarely with NFs--it usually occurs with Ss who seem intent on interpreting generalizations as specific cases that apply 100% of the time.

    You may think it's "implied" that we're talking about every single specific person in the entire state of California, as if we've somehow met and personally evaluated each and every one of them, and I find it unlikely that you're unable to exercise the intuition necessary to read between the lines and recognize that the literal meaning is not the whole picture here.

    I expect this mistake from Sensors, and around ones that I want or need to get along with, I make more of an effort to avoid generalized explanations like this--but we tend to just see it as implied that it obviously doesn't apply to 100% of NFs since it's so blatantly and inherently obvious that it never could. We feel like it goes without saying.

    But besides that, what's the personal context between these people? What are the consequences of offending someone? Have they met before? Does the woman have a history of being offended easily or is she more relaxed about jokes that some consider too crude?

    There are a lot of variables here that you haven't even addressed. Saying that to a complete stranger is probably a bad idea simply because you know nothing about that person's value system and have no idea what consequences might result from offending him/her.

    In your example, NT probably called NF a stupid cunt for:

    A) Obviously being able to understand the generalized, non-specific context in which the statement was made, and
    B) Choosing to call us out on what we see as meaningless semantics instead of interpreting it the way you already know we meant it.

    It's annoying and we get T-snippy and tend to blow you off.

    Like if I'm clearly annoyed with my online poker game today and I go, "Man, everyone on full tilt is such a donkey!"

    And you come in and say: "Well that hardly makes any sense; my uncle plays on full tilt poker professionally, not to mention all the great players on tv supporting that site. Why are you insulting my uncle? That's hurtful."

    At this point we tend to think: "Good lord, she can't really be stupid enough to have interpreted that literally, can she?"

    And then--oops, before we know it we've called you a stupid cunt. It's just irritating how you selectively read into our implied meanings when it's convenient for you (like when you want to complain about our ethics) and not when it's convenient for us (like when you want to willfully misinterpret a generalized statement as a case-specific one.)

    We tend to make broader and broader generalizations the more we get into something, and we find it disingenuous and unnecessarily bureaucratic for you to "correct" us on these situations when it's very obvious what we meant (or is it not obvious?)




    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    And didn't I just tell you that ethics are never a irrelevant for an NF? Ethics are the core of every issue. I don't see how something can be logical and exclude them. I suppose if you said directly to not include ethics, then that should be followed, but I have a feeling the wording used is something like "logical arguments only"...see below.
    If you absolutely refuse to even attempt excluding Fi from any situations in life no matter inappropriate a Feeling response may be in them, I am absolutely baffled at why you would expect any NT to ever do the same regarding Ti.

    You can't have your cake and eat it too. Simultaneously claiming that Ts need to exercise more F but that Fs are too F to exercise any T doesn't really strike me as fair.




    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    You're confusing Fi with emotion again. Ethics can be very logical, and there's nothing necessarily being violated to include them in a logical argument. As for ethics being objective or subjective, that in itself is an argument.
    I know that. I just told you I think Ti and Fi are virtually identical, didn't I?




    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    Fi essentially is the INFP person....so that person shouldn't exist in some circumstances? Whaaaa?
    Maybe the reason they are getting mad is because you're invalidating their viewpoint and entire existence....
    Yes, that's correct. I am not telling you to abandon your value system; I am simply pointing out certain specific situations where you can adapt and *temporarily* apply a function other than your most natural response. This is called learning to deal with people--you can excuse bluffing an idiot once, but once you've seen that he's clearly too incompetent to understand what your strong bets mean, if you lose a bunch of money bluffing him again, the mistake becomes yours.

    You must be able to adapt to specific situations. For example, as an Ne dom it's very very difficult for me to follow the established or accepted method or path for anything, but experience has taught me that it actually is a good idea to do that in certain situations, like say--fixing my car.

    If I just continue to complain that as an Ne dom I'm incapable of using any Si and follow any established methods, and I continue to create negative results for myself for it, "boo-hoo I'm too Ne" loses its value as an excuse. The mistake becomes mine.



    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    This is really a matter of perspective. I think calling someone a name like "asshole" is more childish. I think "intolerant" or "ignorant" is cutting closer to the reason why the NF is upset. Maybe it's not true, but that's how they see it and why they are mad. I would see that as a direct slap declaring war, not as a subtle, back-handed insult.
    Unfortunately INFPs rarely realize the degree of intolerance and ignorance they themselves are practicing when they slap those labels on people. Once you start people what ignorant buffoons they are, they're not going to be very open to hearing your ideas.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    And once again, INFPs CAN be questioned and criticized; it's a matter of approach.
    The fact that you need an elaborate instruction manual to do so should tell you something.



    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    No, it doesn't have to result in that. INFPs can thicken their skin. It's hard since our makeup is inherently idealistic and sensitive, but there can be improvements. However, if they start brushing off your criticism as "ignorant", then you can't get annoyed - I mean, the INFP can't win either way then
    I know it's difficult, but I don't understand how you can simultaneously say that Ts should recognize situations where they can practice more F and then squelch their T impulse in those situations (which I agree with btw) but also that Fs are inherently too emotional to do the reverse.

    Kinda conveniently removes any responsibility from your hands/places all the moral blame elsewhere. (This is a running theme with Fi...just like Ti's insistence on always believing it is the most logical.)



    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    I agree with you about low-balling, but I would ask you to ponder why women don't stand up for themselves as often....then you start to get into matters of gender inequality, and the value placed on each gender. See, always more to the story than simple logic.
    Sure, but only immature Fi would fail to read into the context at all and automatically interpret it as a personal attack. That's to be avoided.

    Personally I've found that identifying and studying people in your own type who are clearly less developed/intelligent than you are is a good way to gain insight as the conceptual nature of your own mistakes.

    So find yerself some dumb INFPs!

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    My example would be the weight loss issue. NTs often spout off "just eat less calories than you burn" as the logical way, and while that is true, they leave out many other variables. The external environment promotes an unhealthy lifestyle (sedentary jobs, convenient & cheap junk food), and so losing weight is also a battle against society. Then there's eating out of emotion (stress, upset, celebration) and getting feelings under control. This is where the NF understanding of human emotion and workings comes into play in an argument, and why it is valid. It actually reveals more of the picture.
    That's interesting; I've never observed any correlation between MBTI and diet/exercise methodology preference, but I'll take your word for it.

    Yes, I see why that is valid. And Thinkers should strive to ignore their Thinking impulse and behave in a more Feeling way in situations where that's the most appropriate response--and vice versa.



    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    I'm not. I am tempering your criticism by pointing out that INFP flaws are not any worse than other people's flaws.
    Clearly.


    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    No, we act out emotionally first and become defensive, then we give it consideration later. I've emphasized that several times. Again, the gentler your approach, the more likely they will be to consider it.
    And you don't think there might be certain situations in life where acting out emotionally and becoming defensive isn't, you know, necessarily the absolute best way of going about things?



    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    I acknowledged that it's a better approach, and I explained the INFP perspective in their default approach, and that is to avoid dreaded confrontation. If often does work with other people who are more sensitive to a person's emotions. Since that is not an NT's area of expertise, then the NF does need to learn to be direct.

    I think we're going round and round on some things here....
    k good.



    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    If an INFP is having regular emotional outbursts, then he must be under a lot of stress. At my last job, they joked that I did not even speak for the first year there. It takes a lot of energy for an INFP to emote that much.

    Anyway, something as simple as:
    "This is getting stressful. Do you want to take a break and get coffee (or whatever)? When we come back, we might have a clearer perspective on the music. "
    Or maybe suggest sleeping on it, depending on how worked up the INFP is.

    You need to show concern. Using "we" is the pretty typical way to diffuse a touchy person. It says, "Hey, I am on your side, and I am here to support you, not fight you." That makes a person trust you and let down the defensive attitude. They become more open to hearing your perspective. Yeah, it's cheesey and people make fun of the "we" approach all the time, but there's a reason why it's associated with psychologists trying calm people down.
    That's good advice that I can probably apply; thank you.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    Don't think they won't know that you really mean "You seem stressed out. You need perspective" and that they'll think it's you who needs it (if that idea bothers you). It's simply less inflammatory for you to do it in a "we" way, for the reasons I mentioned.



    This person was angry and grasping at straws to justify his behavior. If his Fi is healthy at all, then he hopefully reflected on it later and realized he acted stupidly.

    The INFP sensitivity taken to the extreme isn't pretty, but I wouldn't say it's typical Fi to be quite that petty.
    I guess you haven't had the misfortune of encountering many really childish INFPs. Lucky you!




    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    Generally, INFPs are not emotional in the way society desires. Society desires Fe, not Fi. INFPs can seem aloof on the surface, and many complain they give off a cold impression at first. Plus, sensitivity is seen as a weakness, even thought it goes hand-in-hand with strengths like compassion. You end up with INFP women who seem cold and uptight and INFP men who seem like the wimpy sensitive guy.
    Well, society may desire Fe but Fi is celebrated in popular media and mythology--may have something to do with why INFPs are good novelists. (BUT OMG I KNOW AN INFP WHO SUCKS AT WRITING NOVELS!!!!!!!!!!!!!)

    Anyway though American society is gradually becoming more and more appreciate of the Fi-oriented male--the ideal image in today's zeitgeist is both strong/manly and sensitive to a woman's needs, because we're stuck in the middle of transitioning between the two. It can create some difficult images for young men to live up to.

    But anyway, you don't have have nearly as difficult a time with giving off cold impressions as NT females. They have it the absolute worst.


    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    This is true, but off the bat ENTPs seem outgoing and funny in a laid-back manner. From my perspective, ENTPs don't seem introverted, but from another E's perspective they might.
    That depends on how much development of Fe the ENTP has done.

    For two extreme examples from this board, take Edahn (lots of Fe) vs. Nocap (zero Fe.)

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    My ENTP dad is quite likable at first, but upon closer examination he's impossible to deal with. Most people just see the surface of you though, so functioning in society is easier when the surface is palatable. INFPs don't have the most appealing surface (bland, aloof, etc).
    Yep, that's typical of P types, actually. Outwardly flexible but internally rigid as a...something really rigid.



    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    I see it all the time. NFs will defend NTs as not being robots and stuff like that. You hear more admiration coming from the NF camp towards the NT camp than the other way around.
    I'm not sure I agree with that, but it's probably pointless to discuss.



    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    Well I certainly don't expect people to use Fi as I do, and MBTI definitely clarifies the differences in perspective. INFPs usually express feeling odd and out of place, so I can't say that we expect everyone to see through our eyes.
    Fair enough, and I do feel bad for you guys in certain situations. You have a lot of gifts that I do appreciate; I suppose I tend to show that more to the real INFPs in my real life whom I've had time to get to know and appreciate.

    My INFP roommate says: I Never Focus Properly. I thought that was succinct.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    As far as appreciating Fi, well, everyone wants to be appreciated on some level, and no one wants to be misunderstood and have their very essence degraded.
    Very true. As I've said before Ti is similarly part of the NT's very essence, but failure to separate from it in key situations where an F approach works better (and vice versa) is something we all need to strive to avoid.

    It's all Buddhism, really.
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    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    When the topic at hand tends to divide across T/F lines, NFs will naturally tend to side with the F sentiment and Ts with the T one.

    She was arguing that NFs stick up for NTs a lot, and I was saying that this is generally only true in situations where the topic tends to divide across N/S lines (or P/J lines if they share that letter too), putting us naturally on the same side.
    I'll have to disagree. I could break down why.. but, essentially, I think it's retarded to say "Feelers usually stick up for feelers!" Girls don't always side with other girls just because they're the same gender.. Even if bitter guys sometimes assume that's the case.
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    This thread needs WAY more cowbell.
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    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    I'll have to disagree. I could break down why.. but, essentially, I think it's retarded to say "Feelers usually stick up for feelers!" Girls don't always side with other girls just because they're the same gender.. Even if bitter guys sometimes assume that's the case.
    Errrr...I'm at a total loss for how gender even became a factor here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Errrr...I'm at a total loss for how gender even became a factor here.

    -1
    It was an analogy.

    Dang, where's your Ne?

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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Errrr...I'm at a total loss for how gender even became a factor here.

    -1
    I honestly didn't think I'd have to break that down barney style.

    It's an analogy. As in, the logic of a situation has nothing to do with gender, and yet someone could complain that I sided with the same gender just because they assume we connect better being the same gender. This doesn't make much sense at all in reality, as I tend to connect better to men.

    I was using that to make the point that it's illogical to say Feelers usually side with other feelers in disagreements just because you assume they understand each other more. The reality is, every situation is different, and people side with people as the situation dictates, not at all necessarily because they have a predisposed bias. To assume anything less is imo to also assume a degree of lower intellect.. as I can't see any feeler going "Technically, they're right.. but I totally agree with you anyways! High five for feeling!"
    Kantgirl: Just say "I'm feminine and I'll punch anyone who says otherwise!"
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    Personally (lol, and Simulated is going to accuse of having some gigantic fit because I've mentioned my personal experiences? ) I don't understand why all NT types are being lumped in here as one with Simulated as their spokesman.

    I had an INTJ relative and a INTP relative (I can't imagine how so many people on here claim to know so many IN, I've only been close to three in my life) anyway I found them the easiest people in my family to interact with. They spoke in straightforward ways, they didn't seek to create unnecessary drama and they were easy to talk to. They never chided me about being cold or too deadpan. It was a relief to be around them really.

    If I felt hurt by something they said, I need only ask what they meant and they explained in straighforward terms and we worked it out. They were highly techincal thinkers and they tried to be patient when I wasn't. They were colder and often very aloof, I tried to be patient with them. They would talk about their feelings when they needed to but otherwise it just wasn't a factor because they remained so calm and straightforward.

    Then I have a ESTP relative and it's so hard to interact with this person. They use the most dramatic and florid emotional ways and enjoy conflict and it is always so hard to try and decipher what they want/need from me at the time and what else is not applicable. They are always chiding me about not being bubbly, friendly enough, probbing into my thoughts and feelings when I am not in the mood to express, etc. They are in short, exhausting and I can only take so much of them and only assume they feel the same way in return.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffster View Post


    This thread needs WAY more cowbell.
    MORE COWBELL.

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