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  1. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by teslashock View Post
    I'm not really trying to sway you. I've found that efforts to make Fi users agree with Ti users are ultimately pretty futile
    I actually find myself agreeing with NTPs on-line more so than some other types. I very much admire Ti, actually. Of course I'm not going to agree with it every time, though.







    Oh I see the mirror. I just don't like what it's reflecting back at me. Did I not point out the fact that we do have an agreement somewhere, and that there's no reason for this debacle to continue?
    Indeed.




    I see the irrationality in being firmly convicted to Ti, sure. That doesn't stop me from being annoyed by Fi users though

    I hope I haven't offended you, seriously (take my dose of Fe!). One of my best friends is an INFP, so obviously I'm not THAT bothered by Fi.


    No you haven't offended me. I was having fun more than anything.

  2. #72
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    I find this all very amusing.

    Quote Originally Posted by teslashock View Post
    I'm simplifying it to its core motivating force, but it's not a gross oversimplification. Sure, the tone of that statement puts Fi in a slightly negative light, but that just has to do with my own personal angst towards strong Fi users and should be taken with nothing more than a grain of salt.

    Most Fi users can't really provide any real reason as to why they hold a certain view. They have a lot of convictions, but upon asking them why they hold these beliefs, they can't really come up with any meaningful reason; it ultimately boils down to how they "feel." I'm not trying to insult Fi; I do think it has its place in society. However, I don't really see how it is inherently anything but irrational at its core.

    I'm ready and willing to see another's perspective on Fi, but I'm skeptical as to how much it will change my opinion.
    I will try to explain this. Its probably going to be more of an Fi Ne perspective, so I apologize to other Fis for straying too far from the general view.

    Fi doesn't have the same sort of straight-forward logic that many non-Fi users want. You want 'premise-premise-conclusion'; I can understand that, its a perfectly reasonable position. But Fi users want to feel their way to a conclusion - its based more on instinctive, free-thinking approach. The logic is there, its just hidden in the background. We can sense it sitting back there but take it for granted and don't feel the need to nut it all out, step by step. To give an analogy: its like hitting the ball out of the park for a clear home-run; after doing so it seems rather unnecessary to touch all the bases - its like pointlessly going through the motions. Fi users often assume others will natually pick up on their instinctive mode of thought and clearly see that underlying logic, simply because its obvious to them. Of course, frequently people can't make those leaps. What an Fi user takes as a given, to others is hidden under cloud of a convoluted thought process.

    An un-healthy, immature Fi user may lack that underlying logic and will make rash and unfounded leaps. But I think you will find the mature, developed Fi users are pretty good with it.

    To give an personal example: I have long been lamented my lack of ability to write essays in exam situations. I have since realize why: I've was trying to do it backwards. The way I normally write an essay (outside exams) is to pick out a very basic patterns (ie. 3/4 things to write about). Then I just pretty much free-write all my ideas and observations. After that I try to make sense of them and what I'm trying to get at. I then edit and organize it all and try to explain myself in a way normal human beings can understand. You can't do that in exams, or in life for that matter.

  3. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    I find this all very amusing.


    I will try to explain this. Its probably going to be more of an Fi Ne perspective, so I apologize to other Fis for straying too far from the general view.

    Fi doesn't have the same sort of straight-forward logic that many non-Fi users want. You want 'premise-premise-conclusion'; I can understand that, its a perfectly reasonable position. But Fi users want to feel their way to a conclusion - its based more on instinctive, free-thinking approach. The logic is there, its just hidden in the background. We can sense it sitting back there but take it for granted and don't feel the need to nut it all out, step by step. To give an analogy: its like hitting the ball out of the park for a clear home-run; after doing so it seems rather unnecessary to touch all the bases - its like pointlessly going through the motions. Fi users often assume others will natually pick up on their instinctive mode of thought and clearly see that underlying logic, simply because its obvious to them. Of course, frequently people can't make those leaps. What an Fi user takes as a given, to others is hidden under cloud of a convoluted thought process.

    An un-healthy, immature Fi user may lack that underlying logic and will make rash and unfounded leaps. But I think you will find the mature, developed Fi users are pretty good with it.
    Good explanation!

    To give an personal example: I have long been lamented my lack of ability to write essays in exam situations. I have since realize why: I've was trying to do it backwards. The way I normally write an essay (outside exams) is to pick out a very basic patterns (ie. 3/4 things to write about). Then I just pretty much free-write all my ideas and observations. After that I try to make sense of them and what I'm trying to get at. I then edit and organize it all and try to explain myself in a way normal human beings can understand. You can't do that in exams, or in life for that matter.

    This is a little off topic - but one of my top skills is bullshitting essays on demand. Is it because I'm an Ne dom? What's up with that?

  4. #74
    Writing... Tamske's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    1. You don't "get" most poetry.
    Check.

    2. You can easily make other kinds of evaluations and choices, but you never seem to know what you really want, and find it frustrating that people ask you this all the time.
    Nought.

    3. The only kind of art you can really appreciate is surrealism, M.C. Escher, and a few classical or Renaissance pieces... for the sense of proportion.
    I love surrealism and Escher! But I'm fond of Van Eyck and Jeroen Bosch and... too. Half check.

    4. You think most of Shakespeare's stuff is schmaltzy.
    I don't understand Shakespeare, but I'm sure it's a language problem, not a Fi problem. I kind of like love stories... provided there is conflict in it, too. Half check.

    5. You have no moral problem (though at times might have an intellectual problem) with following the saying, "When in Rome, do as the Romans do."
    Depends on what the Romans do. Nought.

    6. You don't understand what people are talking about when they want things to be "authentic and real." What, do they think I'm lying about something, or I'm an impostor?
    Check!!! I'm authentic and real all the time, whatever I'm doing. I define my "authentic self" through my actions. I teach, that's what makes me a teacher. I'm not going to ponder whether I'm a real teacher and should be teaching or something like that. If I really teach and I'm happy with it, who is going to say I'm not a real teacher? Not my Fi. (And if she does, Ti will smash her on the head with the above reasoning.)

    7. People tell you (much to your confusion) that you're completely insensitive to "visceral reactions," and thus extremely offensive to many people, despite your best efforts to be polite/considerate.
    What's a visceral reaction? (Searching the word in a dictionary)... Er, what's a visceral reaction? Check.

    8. You think people with strong personal convictions about right/wrong which have no basis in anything other than their own feelings are stupid, childish, backwards, uncooperative, and irrational.
    Irrational is the only word I would call them. Because that's the definition of irrational, isn't it? But in my book, it's not bad/stupid/childish/... to be irrational. Nought.

    9. You think "personal accountability" is for suckers and scapegoats.
    Nought!!! Now THAT is one of my personal values. Even if my Fi fails on anything else, she will take care of this one.

    10. Your sense of ethics is based almost entirely on how your actions make other people feel about you.
    This is Fe vs Fi, isn't it? Half check.

    11. You've been compared to a politician more times than you care to remember.
    Nought.

    12. You don't appreciate when people claim a "lack of personal/emotional investment" as an argument against the value of something. To you, this makes it better.
    Check.

    Well, what are yours? Anyone else here have lousy Fi?
    Five and a half out of ten. Half lousy Fi?
    Got questions? Ask an ENTP!
    I'm female. I just can't draw women

  5. #75
    Mud and rain and chaos... TickTock's Avatar
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    Well I can't speak for others but when it comes to Shakespeare I've always intuitively understood it even if there were parts about it and references I didn't know.
    The whole made sense. But it's more than understanding, it's that it speaks to me beyond the words -I really feel it so much more than the understanding of it and that for me is the crux.
    ~ Truth ~ Freedom ~ Health ~ Love ~ Communication ~ Humor ~ Respect ~

  6. #76
    o edward cullen! Ardea's Avatar
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    this whole thing made me realize the Fi is strong in me... O_O
    Practice random kindness and senseless acts of beauty.

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  7. #77
    Senior Member The Outsider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by teslashock View Post
    Yes, I'm going to go ahead and agree with all this. Fi values just seem so completely arbitrary and unfounded by anything substantial, and strong Fi users are just so pushy and hypocritical in the end.
    Well aren't you special.

  8. #78
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Or what it perceives to be those needs - the other person's opinion on the subject is irrelevant.
    I agree strongly with the above.


    (and yes, we all know that users of other preferences do annoying stuff too - it's just simply not the point of this thread.)

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