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  1. #61
    Geolectric teslashock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    Fi values truth, harmony, and authenticity. Fi allows other people to be who they are as long as the others don't tread heavily upon Fi's values. Fi has empathy for other people. Fi in action often promotes causes which aren't necessarily popular with mainstream society, therefore bringing about social change. Fi will tailor gifts and acts of kindness specifically to a beloved person's individual needs.
    Again, I never said Fi was useless. I even said it has its place in society, did I not? Why are you trying to convince me of this?

    Those things that you mentioned are all good things about Fi, but often times Fi will become so deeply convicted about something that it causes Fi users to hold steadfastly to their beliefs, regardless of how practical they are in the real world. This is typical of INFPs, and I find it extremely hard to deal with.

    Fi isn't "emotional whims" - if anything, that description is closer to untamed Se.
    I already admitted that my statement was a bit of a manifestation of my own personal angst. However, I don't think it's completely false to say that Fi users are guided by their own personal feelings. Sympathy/empathy is derived from an internal feeling, is it not? Fi users act largely off of the visceral empathy/sympathy that they feel (thus the "emotional whims"), and I am not going to claim that this is an inherently bad thing to do. Again, I just think that Fi users can become so convicted that they start to act unreasonably.

    Fi also doesn't exist alone as a function in most normal people, and in tandem with Te can be quite reasonable.
    I think this is a bit of an overstatement. Te makes Fi healthy, but I don't believe it's accurate to say that most Fi users have that kind of balance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by teslashock View Post
    Again, I never said Fi was useless. I even said it has its place in society, did I not? Why are you trying to convince me of this?

    Those things that you mentioned are all good things about Fi, but often times Fi will become so deeply convicted about something that it causes Fi users to hold steadfastly to their beliefs, regardless of how practical they are in the real world. This is typical of INFPs, and I find it extremely hard to deal with
    It's interesting to me that you say "it causes Fi users to hold steadfastly to their beliefs, regardless of how practical they are in the real world" when you have Ti. Ti may follow systems of logic, but its ideas are often completely divorced from "the real world" as well. As far as Fi is concerned, that is why ideally it is paired with someone with developed Te - or who works on their Te - so that they can check their belief system with what works in the real world.


    I already admitted that my statement was a bit of a manifestation of my own personal angst. However, I don't think it's completely false to say that Fi users are guided by their own personal feelings. Sympathy/empathy is derived from an internal feeling, is it not? Fi users act largely off of the visceral empathy/sympathy that they feel (thus the "emotional whims"), and I am not going to claim that this is an inherently bad thing to do. Again, I just think that Fi users can become so convicted that they start to act unreasonably.
    I agree that Fi users can become so convicted that they start to act unreasonably. However, it is bad logic to equate an F preference (Fe or Fi) too strongly with "emotions."



    I think this is a bit of an overstatement. Te makes Fi healthy, but I don't believe it's accurate to say that most Fi users have that kind of balance.
    Just as it is an overstatement for you to inaccurately testify that most Fi users cannot give reasons for their beliefs. As a liberal arts major - and I would like to point out that many, many liberal arts majors are NFs - I find it almost funny for you to make such an assertion, as the vast majority of my tertiary education has been focused upon building convincing arguments to support my thesis statements.

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    This is a good list!

  4. #64
    Geolectric teslashock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    It's interesting to me that you say "it causes Fi users to hold steadfastly to their beliefs, regardless of how practical they are in the real world" when you have Ti. Ti may follow systems of logic, but its ideas are often completely divorced from "the real world" as well. As far as Fi is concerned, that is why ideally it is paired with someone with developed Te - or who works on their Te - so that they can check their belief system with what works in the real world.
    Hey now, I NEVER claimed that Ti is perfect either. All introverted functions have pitfalls in that they can become completely divorced from reality. This isn't supposed to be a "Which function sucks more?" competition; don't turn it into that. Just because I see the problems with a function that I don't really use doesn't mean that I don't see problems with my own functions as well.

    The fact that I say "it causes Fi users to hold steadfastly to their beliefs, regardless of how practical they are in the real world" does not eliminate any possibility that I believe similiar things of Ti. Logic (like ethics) can only go so far before it becomes completely impractical. I don't think I ever said that Fi is the one function that fucks people up, but used in copious amounts, it does indeed fuck people up.

    All introverted functions require good balance with an extroverted function to ever be useful/practical. You are turning this into a personal thing when you attack me for my functions (kind of an Fi thing to do, and one of the many things that kind of annoys me about strong Fi users). I am not trying to attack you here; I'm merely arguing that Fi has some major drawbacks. I never meant to imply that Fi is shittier than Ti or any other introverted function for that matter. I was just pointing out reasons why I think it's shitty.

    I agree that it should be paired with Te; this can oftentimes do great things (though I still don't empathize with an Fi user's motivating force, no matter how balanced, but I suppose I wouldnt ).



    I agree that Fi users can become so convicted that they start to act unreasonably.
    Well then I don't see much reason to continue with this debacle. This is what annoys me about strong Fi users, bottom line, and we are obviously in agreement there.

    However, it is bad logic to equate an F preference (Fe or Fi) too strongly with "emotions."
    I disagree with this. I think there is a fundamental difference among the way you are defining "emotions" and the way I am defining "emotions" though. Fi users are guided by empathy and their personal feelings on a matter. In my book, these are emotions. You seem to view emotions as a bad thing; I don't mean any negative connotation when I use that word. Emotions are a strong driving force in many people, and I wish I was better at understanding them. Emotions are biologically-backed many times, and it's not inherently bad to be guided by emotions. However, again, when taken too far, emotions can be largely impractical (as can impersonal logic).





    Just as it is an overstatement for you to inaccurately testify that most Fi users cannot give reasons for their beliefs. .
    Fine, it wasn't fair for me to say "most"; I should have said something along the lines of "many" or "a significant portion." I still don't think my claim is too far-off though.


    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    This statement here is particularly obtuse. Apparently you're grouping people who are uneducated or inarticulate or go through life with a "because I said so!" attitude as "most Fi users." I could certainly give you meaningful reasons for the majority of political positions I promote, as could many other Fi users I'm sure.
    A lot of Fi users can provide "meaningful" reasons, sure. I bet most of this meaning comes from combining Fi with Te though, something a significant portion of unbalanced, strong Fi users often fail to do.

    I don't equate Fi with "uneducated" or "inarticulate" or a "because I said so! attitude." I apologize if I gave that impression. I equate Fi with formulating ethical reasons for holding a certain belief when in actuality that belief is based largely on personal feelings towards a matter. Fi users are pretty notorious for forcing their own personal values onto real-world issues, something I view as largely irrational and impractical.

    However, there is no rule that states "rationality is better than irrationality", so I'm not making any value claims as to which function is better. Being one that is guided by a logic and reason though, I just become quite annoyed by illogic and irrationality applied to real-world issues. Again though, I am making no claims as to how right I am to value what I value. It's just a personal preference.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by teslashock View Post
    Hey now, I NEVER claimed that Ti is perfect either. All introverted functions have pitfalls in that they can become completely divorced from reality. The fact that I say "it causes Fi users to hold steadfastly to their beliefs, regardless of how practical they are in the real world" does not eliminate any possibility that I believe similiar things of Ti. Logic (like ethics) can only go so far before it becomes completely impractical. I don't think I ever said that Fi is the one function that fucks people up, but used in copious amounts, it does indeed fuck people up.

    All introverted functions require good balance with an extroverted function to ever be useful/practical. You are turning this into a personal thing when you attack me for my functions (kind of an Fi thing to do, and one of the many things that kind of annoys me about strong Fi users).
    Nope I was just stating a counterpoint. The lack of "real world" application applies equally to Fi and Ti for slightly different reasons, and there's nothing personal about pointing out the irony in your complaint...other than the fact that you apparently don't like it, which is an emotional judgement.
















    I don't equate Fi with "uneducated" or "inarticulate" or a "because I said so! attitude." I apologize if I gave that impression. I equate Fi with formulating ethical reasons for holding a certain belief when in actuality that belief is based largely on personal feelings towards a matter. Fi users are pretty notorious for forcing their own personal values onto real-world issues, something I view as largely irrational and impractical.
    Lots of people force their personal values onto real-world issues for various functional reasons. Fi does not hold sway in this domain. To the contrary, we've got Si-driven racists, Ti-driven Randroids, Fe-driven gay bashers...ah, you get the point.

    We are in complete agreement, though, that when people are completely irrational about life it can be irritating.

    However, there is no rule that states "rationality is better than irrationality", so I'm not making any value claims as to which function is better. Being one that is guided by a logic and reason though, I just become quite annoyed by illogic and irrationality applied to real-world issues. Again though, I am making no claims as to how right I am to value what I value. It's just a personal preference.
    Does it make you feel better that I weigh my personal values against 1) life experience and the physical world around me, and 2) against the political opinions of the most erudite INTP I know?

    For what it's worth, I'm not trying to have a huge argument with you, I just wanted to perhaps sway you away a bit your preconceived notions of Fi.

  6. #66
    Geolectric teslashock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    Nope I was just stating a counterpoint. The lack of "real world" application applies equally to Fi and Ti for slightly different reasons, and there's nothing personal about pointing out the irony in your complaint...other than the fact that you apparently don't like it, which is an emotional judgement.


    See, THIS is another thing that annoys me about Fi users, and I hear that same claim from them all the time. Can you seriously not separate "dislike" from an emotional conviction? I dislike the fact that you "pointed out that irony" because it was kind of irrelevant to the argument at hand, and I went on to explain why I thought it was a bit non-sequitur. I didn't dislike it because you personally offended me, as I took no personal offense to that comment whatsoever. The fact that you think you emotionally bothered me is something I find really obnoxious. I never made ANY emotional claims about that irony at all.



    Lots of people force their personal values onto real-world issues for various functional reasons. Fi does not hold sway in this domain. To the contrary, we've got Si-driven racists, Ti-driven Randroids, Fe-driven gay bashers...ah, you get the point.

    We are in complete agreement, though, that when people are completely irrational about life it can be irritating.



    Does it make you feel better that I weigh my personal values against 1) life experience and the physical world around me, and 2) against the political opinions of the most erudite INTP I know?

    For what it's worth, I'm not trying to have a huge argument with you, I just wanted to perhaps sway you away a bit from your preconceived notions of Fi.
    My notions are not preconceived. I'm going off of personal experience with Fi users, and I've merely recognized a pattern among these people and used Ti to reasonably correlate it with Fi. I'm not unwilling to change my views, but I have pretty firm reasons for holding these views already, and you've not really swayed me too much.

    The fact that other introverted functions are irrational does not eliminate the potential for Fi to be irrational. Sure, any strongly introverted person is going to act largely on personal values and this can become impractical in any form. It just annoys me that personal values for an Fi user are so emotionally-based.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by teslashock View Post
    See, THIS is another thing that annoys me about Fi users, and I hear that same claim from them all the time. Can you seriously not separate "dislike" from an emotional conviction? I dislike the fact that you "pointed out that irony" because it was kind of irrelevant to the argument at hand, and I went on to explain why I thought it was a bit non-sequitur. I didn't dislike it because you personally offended me, as I took no personal offense to that comment whatsoever. The fact that you think you emotionally bothered me is something I find really obnoxious. I never made ANY emotional claims about that irony at all.
    You can't seperate a personal ethical value system from emotions, so why I should I seperate your dislike from emotional conviction? I don't think my point was irrelevant at all, in so far that I was attempting to dissuade your from your prejudice against Fi.





    My notions are not preconceived. I'm going off of personal experience with Fi users, and I've merely recognized a pattern among these people and used Ti to correlate it with Fi. I'm not unwilling to change my views, but I have pretty firm reasons for holding these views already, and you've not really swayed me too much.
    I have pretty firm reasons for holding these views already, and you've not really swayed me too much either. I'm not unwilling to change my views, either. This is almost like arguing with a mirror. Why do I see that and you don't?

    The fact that other introverted functions are irrational does not eliminate the potential for Fi to be irrational. Sure, any strongly introverted person is going to act largely on personal values and this can become impractical in any form. It just annoys me that personal values for an Fi user are so emotionally-based.

    It annoys me when NTs don't realize how irrational they're being.

  8. #68
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    Fi values truth, harmony, and authenticity.
    Who gets to determine what those are?

    Fi allows other people to be who they are as long as the others don't tread heavily upon Fi's values.
    Thus truly not allowing others to be who they are.

    Fi has empathy for other people.
    Unless they get on their bad side, then it's gone, and never coming back.

    Fi in action often promotes causes which aren't necessarily popular with mainstream society, therefore bringing about social change.
    It never does this by itself, it always needs a Ti-user or an Fe-user to explain to others why it is necessary, or a Te-user (or its own Te) to impose it on others.

    Fi will tailor gifts and acts of kindness specifically to a beloved person's individual needs.
    Or what it perceives to be those needs - the other person's opinion on the subject is irrelevant.

    Fi also doesn't exist alone as a function in most normal people, and in tandem with Te can be quite reasonable.
    Or oppressive and tyrannical to others who do not hold the same personal values. There's a reason the hero often grows to see himself become the enemy.

  9. #69
    Geolectric teslashock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    You can't seperate a personal ethical value system from emotions, so why I should I seperate your dislike from emotional conviction? I don't think my point was irrelevant at all, in so far that I was attempting to dissuade your from your prejudice against Fi.
    I'm not really trying to sway you. I've found that efforts to make Fi users agree with Ti users are ultimately pretty futile





    I have pretty firm reasons for holding these views already, and you've not really swayed me too much either. I'm not unwilling to change my views, either. This is almost like arguing with a mirror. Why do I see that and you don't?
    Oh I see the mirror. I just don't like what it's reflecting back at me. Did I not point out the fact that we do have an agreement somewhere, and that there's no reason for this debacle to continue?


    It annoys me when NTs don't realize how irrational they're being.
    I see the irrationality in being firmly convicted to Ti, sure. That doesn't stop me from being annoyed by Fi users though

    I hope I haven't offended you, seriously (take my dose of Fe!). One of my best friends is an INFP, so obviously I'm not THAT bothered by Fi.

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    Geolectric teslashock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Who gets to determine what those are?



    Thus truly not allowing others to be who they are.



    Unless they get on their bad side, then it's gone, and never coming back.



    It never does this by itself, it always needs a Ti-user or an Fe-user to explain to others why it is necessary, or a Te-user (or its own Te) to impose it on others.



    Or what it perceives to be those needs - the other person's opinion on the subject is irrelevant.



    Or oppressive and tyrannical to others who do not hold the same personal values. There's a reason the hero often grows to see himself become the enemy.
    Yes, I'm going to go ahead and agree with all this. Fi values just seem so completely arbitrary and unfounded by anything substantial, and strong Fi users are just so pushy and hypocritical in the end.

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