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  1. #1
    Senior Member Pseudonym_Alpha's Avatar
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    Default Science and Love

    Someone asked me today "Can love and science truly co-exist?" to which I simply replied, "Yes, I love science "
    Introverted (I) 53.57% Extroverted (E) 46.43%
    Intuitive (N) 54.55% Sensing (S) 45.45%
    Feeling (F) 65.63% Thinking (T) 34.38%
    Judging (J) 63.64% Perceiving (P) 36.36%


    "Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius -- and a lot of courage -- to move in the opposite direction."

    --Albert Einstein

  2. #2
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pseudonym_Alpha View Post
    Someone asked me today "Can love and science truly co-exist?" to which I simply replied, "Yes, I love science "
    Additionally, love can be explained scientifically by examining the brain. It's simply an altered state of various chemicals, hormones, and neural pathways, triggered by certain stimuli. It can even be explained as an evolutionary adaptation. When you look things through science, they make more sense. That's what I like about it.

    Of course, I wouldn't want to think about things that way all the time, because the world of science is kind of a dead, impersonal one, and people mean something to me, even if I know that it's just my nature. To quote Aquinas, "I would rather feel compassion than know the meaning of it."

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    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by athenian200 View Post
    Of course, I wouldn't want to think about things that way all the time, because the world of science is kind of a dead, impersonal one, and people mean something to me, even if I know that it's just my nature. To quote Aquinas, "I would rather feel compassion than know the meaning of it."
    And I look at it and say, "If that's all it is, why should I pretend it to be any different -- even if it makes my life feel empty and meaningless?"
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

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    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    And I look at it and say, "If that's all it is, why should I pretend it to be any different -- even if it makes my life feel empty and meaningless?"
    You don't have to pretend it's any different, you just have to realize that that's only one way of looking at things, and you can just ignore it in order to seek personal fulfillment. Why focus on something continually if it doesn't benefit you?

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    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by athenian200 View Post
    You don't have to pretend it's any different, you just have to realize that that's only one way of looking at things, and you can just ignore it in order to seek personal fulfillment. Why focus on something continually if it doesn't benefit you?
    I don't get a choice.

    You speak as if I can see all perspectives are inherently equal, so I should pick the most useful one.

    To me, they are not equal.

    If love is just chemicals and biology, I don't feel any better trying to pretend it's not... because I know that anything I'm telling myself is a lie. So I feel empty anyway. I can't change how I feel, there has to be congruence between the inherent definitions of the world and how I feel about life.

    Otherwise, I am living in denial.

    [Hence, my current spiritual dilemma -- Because my perception of the inherent nature of Christianity changed, in terms of reality, now I am stuck. I can't just tell myself it's "still a good value system" and so I can place just as much emotional and personal weight in it. If it's a historical fraud in many ways, then that is the foundational truth of it and I cannot accept it on those grounds any longer. Right now I can only feel best by being agnostic.]
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

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    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I don't get a choice.

    You speak as if I can see all perspectives are inherently equal, so I should pick the most useful one.

    To me, they are not equal.

    If love is just chemicals and biology, I don't feel any better trying to pretend it's not... because I know that anything I'm telling myself is a lie. So I feel empty anyway. I can't change how I feel, there has to be congruence between the inherent definitions of the world and how I feel about life.
    Ugh... that's your Si, isn't it? It makes no sense to me to base your value system on what is objectively true versus what seems right/proper to you, subjectively, especially if the truth doesn't serve any purpose or limit you. To me, I know that truth exists in the world, I just think that I shouldn't make all my decisions on the basis of what's true. Truth only limits my abilities, not my wishes/hopes. Or rather, truth doesn't change them, even if it does limit them, so why not act on them?

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    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by athenian200 View Post
    Ugh... that's your Si, isn't it?
    No, to me it's Ti. If the nature of the world is ambiguous or it's purely biological, then it's a pure and downright lie to pretend otherwise. And I'm not about to live a lie or pretend life is anything other than what it is.

    (Even pragmatically speaking. I tried for 30 years. It doesn't work for me. I spend my time in a decision-less limbo, trying to preach values I do not have confidence in.)

    It makes no sense to me to base your value system on what is objectively true versus what seems right/proper to you, subjectively, especially if the truth doesn't serve any purpose. To me, I know that truth exists in the world, I just think that I shouldn't make all my decisions on the basis of what's true.


    What you said just mentally floored me. I follow what you said, but there is no way on earth I can comprehend how you can live according to that rule. It makes NO sense to me.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

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    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Am I the only one who finds it funny in a ridiculous, resigned sort of way?

    I think the science of love is both amusing and fascinating.

    I don't see any reason why understanding how something works should make it stop working. It simply gives you the ability to . . . manipulate has such a negative connotation, but I think that's the best word . . things more successfully.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

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    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    And I look at it and say, "If that's all it is, why should I pretend it to be any different -- even if it makes my life feel empty and meaningless?"
    Because then maybe your life wouldn't feel empty and meaningless? I can understand why you feel the way you do. Thankfully I don't seem to have the same restrictions on how I view the world. My perspective is more like athenian's. If knowledge of the "truth" does not benefit me, I try to ignore it. Even though I know that love is nothing more than a chemical response in my brain, the feeling is not diminished. It still feels great. When I'm experiencing those feelings, I'm not analyzing them, I'm enjoying them. I save my analysis for negative feelings (anger, depression, etc). That's where cold, critical analysis benefits me.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  10. #10
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    No, to me it's Ti. If the nature of the world is ambiguous or it's purely biological, then it's a pure and downright lie to pretend otherwise. And I'm not about to live a lie or pretend life is anything other than what it is.
    I didn't say to lie. I said simply that a person could realize this, and decide that since they knew it was in human nature to behave according to their emotions, and that humans felt emotions, that they would simply live their lives as well as they could in any case, simply because they wanted to. I don't see why you would be lying to accomplish that. It isn't as if you've denied the truth, you've just accepted it, and can now focus on other things.

    What you said just mentally floored me. I follow what you said, but there is no way on earth I can comprehend how you can live according to that rule. It makes NO sense to me.
    Well, I'm an Ni dominant, remember?

    cafe: Great explanation, I'm convinced you're an INFJ now. I was pretty sure before, but now I'm positive.

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