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  1. #21
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    To me, truth is beauty and beauty is truth. I sometimes cry over the truth because it's beautiful. (Or something like that... )
    So you don't see it as that annoying, irritating thing that gets in your way, then?

    But seriously, there's a certain kind of beauty in some truth, but not in all of it. I do feel better/safer when I understand the truth, even if it doesn't change what I want.

    Could it be said that for an INTP, truth doesn't get in your way, because it IS your way?

  2. #22
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by athenian200 View Post
    So you don't see it as that annoying, irritating thing that gets in your way, then?

    But seriously, there's a certain kind of beauty in some truth, but not in all of it. I do feel better/safer when I understand the truth, even if it doesn't change what I want.

    Could it be said that for an INTP, truth doesn't get in your way, because it IS your way?
    Truth can get in the way only because society demands that you either do something that is (1) expedient in the real world or that (2) satisfies your desires. So truth itself really doesn't get in the way, it's the pressure from outside forces that diminish the priority of truth that get in the way and make a conflict.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  3. #23
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    Science lessens idealization, an important component of infatuation.

  4. #24
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick View Post
    Science lessens idealization, an important component of infatuation.
    It isn't to me. I can always see people's flaws, even when I care about them. In a sense, being able to care about a person in spite of their flaws would make the emotion even more beautiful, not less. Believing them to be ideal just seems... naive, thoughtless, and a little backwards.

  5. #25
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    And I look at it and say, "If that's all it is, why should I pretend it to be any different -- even if it makes my life feel empty and meaningless?"
    I don't think that's all it is. It's only a part of what is. We can make choices. We don't get to make all of the choices, but we get some. Science explains and sometimes dictates some of the how, why, who, and when, but not all of it. We have conscious thought. We are capable of being aware. Being aware of science and being aware of ourselves gives us some control over what we do and who we become and how, who, and when we love. We can become part of our own behavioral experiment.

    We can't control everything, though, and this might be kind of what you are running into. It's funny, too, if you look at the contradiction between the doctrine of original sin and the expectations that some groups that hold that doctrine place on people. Especially those that do not believe in sanctification as a separate and instantaneous work of grace.

    There are some people that, no matter how much you want to or how wonderful you think they are, you are not going to be attracted to them and you are never going to love them romantically. Your biology or your unconscious mind, or whatever just won't let it happen. Then there are going to be people you are attracted to that you really would rather not be.

    Ideally we work with our biology, but also engage our conscious thought. I used the word manipulate earlier because that is about all we can do. We don't get complete control, but understanding science gives us a tool with which to enhance and influence how our life plays out. We can sort of nudge and/or head ourselves off at the pass. That kind of thing.

    To me, it makes no more sense to believe that you can't experience the feelings brought on my the chemical components of love once you understand them than to believe that once you understand how drugs work you can't get high. Understanding how drugs work may influence whether or not you use them, under what circumstances, and what kind you are willing to use, but if the drug gets into your system, it's still going to have an effect.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  6. #26
    にゃん runvardh's Avatar
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    I say you all are lagging behind, I find it wonderful and amazing that it works the way it does. Knowledge doesn't dim idealization for me, wrather it seems to enhance it...
    Dreams are best served manifest and tangible.

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  7. #27
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    To me, it makes no more sense to believe that you can't experience the feelings brought on my the chemical components of love once you understand them than to believe that once you understand how drugs work you can't get high. Understanding how drugs work may influence whether or not you use them, under what circumstances, and what kind you are willing to use, but if the drug gets into your system, it's still going to have an effect.
    Exactly.

    I know that limiting my choices will make me happy. So I do limit my choices nowadays.

    I know that information overload dims my view of the world, so I do limit how I get my information (I've stopped reading and watching the news, for example)

    Knowing offers control... power... options... it offers a way for us to decide what we want. But it's useless without that step that makes the knowledge impact on your life.

    If knowledge is the end... you reach your goal every day, every minute... and reaching your goals makes you miserable. Why set yourself up for failure? Use knowledge - decide your goal and use the knowledge to achieve it... don't make knowledge the end result. It cheapens everything in life. This applies everywhere - don' study finances to understand them, do it to be secure. Don't study relationship to understand, do it to have a good relationship...

    Meaning first, means second. Knowledge will always be a means.

  8. #28
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    I don't think that's all it is. It's only a part of what is. We can make choices. We don't get to make all of the choices, but we get some.
    Well, I just have to be a little stinker and ask, "Do we actually have free will? Or are all of our choices inevitable and programmed?"

    *cricket chirps in the distance*

    We can't control everything, though, and this might be kind of what you are running into. It's funny, too, if you look at the contradiction between the doctrine of original sin and the expectations that some groups that hold that doctrine place on people. Especially those that do not believe in sanctification as a separate and instantaneous work of grace.
    What is funny is that -- at least in terms of my Christian understanding -- I think sanctification ("the long tempering/perfection of the human spirit, to conform to God") is actually an ongoing process as opposed to justification, which is "salvation in a moment."

    But I never seemed to attach the same weight of guilt and sin that many people around me have. They still tend to look at it all as this tortured ugly thing, where they had to strive and work and avoid having God's displeasure visited upon them.

    I just looked at it as, "I'm not perfect right now, and sometimes that really bums me out and suffering occurs; but that's okay. I just need to patch up what I break, and continue onwards; and the promise is that I will get better as I go."

    Isn't Christianity supposed to relieve the pressure of internalized guilt for being imperfect, not increase it?

    To me, it makes no more sense to believe that you can't experience the feelings brought on my the chemical components of love once you understand them than to believe that once you understand how drugs work you can't get high. Understanding how drugs work may influence whether or not you use them, under what circumstances, and what kind you are willing to use, but if the drug gets into your system, it's still going to have an effect.
    Oh, I can feel the feelings. But they are no longer something that is part of my conscious "me" or a choice I have made. They're just mechanical, triggered in response to something else. i will feel them, but I don't really acknowledge them as mine. Because they did not come from my conscious self; they were not chosen by me; thus they are not reflective of my will and decision-making. Anyone who has the right buttons pressed will have the same emotions. it's mechanical.

    The same with being high. A drug is mechanical. The only choice I get with a drug is whether I put it in my mouth, but the drug's impact on me is still separate from "me." It has nothing to do with definitions of things.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by athenian200 View Post
    It isn't to me. I can always see people's flaws, even when I care about them. In a sense, being able to care about a person in spite of their flaws would make the emotion even more beautiful, not less. Believing them to be ideal just seems... naive, thoughtless, and a little backwards.
    That is love, not infatuation. Science has managed to mostly understand the latter.

  10. #30
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick View Post
    That is love, not infatuation. Science has managed to mostly understand the latter.
    Oh... well, then, I consider infatuation a primitive emotion not worth my time or attention, and hardly beautiful. If emotions were tangible, infatuation would be the emotional equivalent of tear gas, in my opinion. Truer love/compassion, on the other hand, would be something more like the Eiffel Tower, the Pyramids, or or perhaps any great work of art, music, or poetry.

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