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  1. #11
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Just to be clear about it, I love the way this discussion exposes differences in type. I totally do follow what everyone is saying and why they're saying it...

    I just know that, despite intellectually agreeing with you on the variations of pragmatic reasoning here, it just doesn't "work" for me. The core essence just demands my utmost fealty.

    I know the biological aspects are true, they DO make us function certain ways.

    Meanwhile, I don't know if anything is layered over top (whether it's God, or human will, or what) -- hence that part is ambiguous.

    So I have no choice (for me), but to see biology as definite and God or whatever else as indefinite, and thus I cannot read more into the biology than warranted even if I see possible patterns. I can only acknowledge them as possibilities, and NOT live by them as if they were utmost truth.

    Quote Originally Posted by athenian200 View Post
    I didn't say to lie. I said simply that a person could realize this, and decide that since they knew it was in human nature to behave according to their emotions, and that humans felt emotions, that they would simply live their lives as well as they could in any case, simply because they wanted to. I don't see why you would be lying to accomplish that. It isn't as if you've denied the truth, you've just accepted it, and can now focus on other things.
    Uh huh. To you, I can understand why it is not a lie. But to me, it IS a lie. Because I'm changing what something actually is (or at least what it can be SHOWN to be) just to suit my own benefit or peace of mind.

    It doesn't matter what I want something to be.

    It just matters what it is / can be shown to be.

    And the definition of something's essence has to be precise -- not less than it is, not more than it is. Ambiguity has to be acknowledged and lived by until knowledge is gained, or I suffer a slow erosion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Because then maybe your life wouldn't feel empty and meaningless?
    I know. I wish I could do that.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  2. #12
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    And that brings me back to INTP flaw #6, "They're too accepting of nature and truth, and don't question anything or anyone's personal right to exist/be true, only care that it is, and act on/express that regardless of anything else."

    I think it could easily be the worst flaw.

  3. #13
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by athenian200 View Post
    And that brings me back to INTP flaw #6, "They're too accepting of nature and truth, and don't question anything or anyone's personal right to exist/be true, only care that it is, and act on/express that regardless of anything else."

    I think it could easily be the worst flaw.
    It's only a flaw in regards as to whether I personally find life meaningful.

    For describing reality and its precise potential, it is quite valuable.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by athenian200 View Post
    Additionally, love can be explained scientifically by examining the brain. It's simply an altered state of various chemicals, hormones, and neural pathways, triggered by certain stimuli. It can even be explained as an evolutionary adaptation. When you look things through science, they make more sense. That's what I like about it.

    Of course, I wouldn't want to think about things that way all the time, because the world of science is kind of a dead, impersonal one, and people mean something to me, even if I know that it's just my nature. To quote Aquinas, "I would rather feel compassion than know the meaning of it."
    not all definitions of love can be explained scientifically
    I don't wanna!

  5. #15
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by booyalab View Post
    not all definitions of love can be explained scientifically
    Care to elaborate on that? Which definitions? As far as I know, behavior is followed and/or preceded by neurological activity and patterns, and the behaviors resulting from particular patterns are typically consistent in a given individual.

  6. #16
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    No, to me it's Ti. If the nature of the world is ambiguous or it's purely biological, then it's a pure and downright lie to pretend otherwise. And I'm not about to live a lie or pretend life is anything other than what it is.
    Why not? Some small lies ( such as thinking that love isn't just a matter of chemicals ) can make me happier, without causing any drawback in my personal life, so It's really okay to delude myself

    Because I'm changing what something actually is (or at least what it can be SHOWN to be) just to suit my own benefit or peace of mind.
    If the empirical results are better, why not changing things to suit one's benefit? Say I am happier thinking that the earth revolves around the moon. Say my personal life is not influenced by this wrong convinction. What's the problem if I keep on thinking this?

  7. #17
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Why not? Some small lies ( such as thinking that love isn't just a matter of chemicals ) can make me happier, without causing any drawback in my personal life, so It's really okay to delude myself

    If the empirical results are better, why not changing things to suit one's benefit? Say I am happier thinking that the earth revolves around the moon. Say my personal life is not influenced by this wrong convinction. What's the problem if I keep on thinking this?
    That's why you are a J... and I'm not.

    It works for you. So I'm glad for your sake you can do it.

    Which is what people aren't seeming to get: It's not that I won't do it or I don't think it might make my life better in some ways.

    I CAN'T do it.

    I'm almost 40 now. I have spent the majority of my life trying to do it... and have had terrible results, a life detached from my own perception of the world, and have been even more miserable than if I just accepted the ambiguity and thus lived with more integrity.

    Perhaps it IS just me, and other people find it easier to change. But it's definitely part of the INTP mindset.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  8. #18
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    That's why you are a J... and I'm not.

    It works for you. So I'm glad for your sake you can do it.

    Which is what people aren't seeming to get: It's not that I won't do it or I don't think it might make my life better in some ways.

    I CAN'T do it.

    I'm almost 40 now. I have spent the majority of my life trying to do it... and have had terrible results, a life detached from my own perception of the world, and have been even more miserable than if I just accepted the ambiguity and thus lived with more integrity.

    Perhaps it IS just me, and other people find it easier to change. But it's definitely part of the INTP mindset.
    Poor INTP. So obsessed with that silly, ever-elusive truth. Perhaps that's why our arguments seem so unnerving to you, because we don't have any personal stake in the truth, and something can just be true, and not matter to us unless it affects our ability to find the things we want for ourselves. I really hope you just feel better one day, no matter what you have to convince yourself of to achieve it.

    Truth and logic are fascinating, even intriguing at times, but they don't really tend to affect my feelings most of the time. I once heard a quote, "That is merely logic. People are not moved by logic." I think the person who said that probably never met an INTP. Sorry, the idea of being that moved by logic is just so amusing to me. I know it shouldn't be, but...

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by athenian200 View Post
    Perhaps that's why our arguments seem so unnerving to you, because we don't have any personal stake in the truth, and something can just be true, and not matter to us unless it affects our ability to find the things we want for ourselves.
    Oh yes, I've heard of that: "Mental Insanity" !

    Sorry, the idea of being that moved by logic is just so amusing to me. I know it shouldn't be, but...
    To me, truth is beauty and beauty is truth. I sometimes cry over the truth because it's beautiful. (Or something like that... )
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  10. #20
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by athenian200 View Post
    To quote Aquinas, "I would rather feel compassion than know the meaning of it."
    And I would rather do compassion than feel it.

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