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  1. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    Yup, three years (that's about right, isn't it? An old timer can tell me, I think he was around before I was) wasn't long enough to explain it to him... *nod* Nevermind the split of the forums to stop exactly what he was doing. And nevermind multiple time outs, a ban or two, a whole lot of PMs, a whole lot of public reprisals...
    Really, what was his thinking based on? Can you sumarize his arguments for saying what he did? I still think whole threads mocking him is a bit much. Sumarizing it, and picking apart the logic, I thought, would have done wonders for a guy like BW.


    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    I'd have to read the link to be sure what it was mocking of his posts but I'm pretty sure it was.
    One person doing something, is not nearly as bad as a whole group turned against one person.

    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    I was comparing your definition of group think, not your post. You said that this forum is exhibiting group think; I said that the example you gave doesn't apply because this is an unwritten form across all forums (and is one of the greatest pet peeves on the internet - there are memes on this now; "Can I have your stuff?", etc.) and therefore is not localised groupthink.

    The analogy was to point out that social conventions could be considered "groupthink" but if that is how you are using it, then I think group think is good. We have social rules for a reason - like not swearing at a playground. There are no signs, there are no laws (?)... it's social awareness. Like I said, no big deal really, especially if you aren't familiar with the rules. You asked why it was jumped on and that's why - it is akin to breaking a rather universal rule.
    My issue was not with the social conventions, but in the manner they are enforced. It really was Orwellian.

    If I cursed in the playground, would you summon half of the people around at the time to curse at me in retribution?

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  2. #62
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    Really, what was his thinking based on? Can you sumarize his arguments for saying what he did? I still think whole threads mocking him is a bit much. Sumarizing it, and picking apart the logic, I thought, would have done wonders for a guy like BW.
    I've run the length of this thread and it's about as far as I'll go. If you care this much to argue it for this long, you should do your own research. You don't seem to be hearing what I say. Three years. Time outs. Bans. Many talks. You are rationalising your stance to a degree that I can't reach out to anymore. I've answered your questions to the best of my ability. My only regret is that the forum was tolerant enough to allow SW/BW and the like to remain on the board so that it could be turned around into this thread.

    (I wonder if I called this one... nuts, I think I didn't. I think that I said that despite him being an ass, the post count of drivel was important to gain momentum. Damn, I hate it when I don't call things right. I should of changed my stance after his 2nd or third attack on Ss. *shrug*)

    Oh, those threads mocking him? Probably seperated posts from larger threads in which him or someone else got personal. But no link provided so I can't tell you.

  3. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    I've run the length of this thread and it's about as far as I'll go. If you care this much to argue it for this long, you should do your own research. You don't seem to be hearing what I say. Three years. Time outs. Bans. Many talks.
    I read all that pt. I still say that nothing warrants a public gang-up on a forum, and I hope it does not occur again.

    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    You are rationalising your stance to a degree that I can't reach out to anymore. I've answered your questions to the best of my ability. My only regret is that the forum was tolerant enough to allow SW/BW and the like to remain on the board so that it could be turned around into this thread.
    Maybe I am rationalizing. I don't get emotional about too many things. But it is my belief that the more controversy a forum can handle (online or otherwise) the healthier it is.

    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    (I wonder if I called this one... nuts, I think I didn't. I think that I said that despite him being an ass, the post count of drivel was important to gain momentum. Damn, I hate it when I don't call things right. I should of changed my stance after his 2nd or third attack on Ss. *shrug*)
    I lost you completely here.

    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    Oh, those threads mocking him? Probably seperated posts from larger threads in which him or someone else got personal. But no link provided so I can't tell you.
    I think it was too.

    But I still implore that similar tactics be avoided in the future (whatever the conventions being enforced are). Even if it is common online, I don't think it should happen.

    I really wonder if there are others on this forum who kept quiet who agree with me on the use of those tactics.

    Am I the lone voice?

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
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    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  4. #64
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    Maybe I am rationalizing. I don't get emotional about too many things. But it is my belief that the more controversy a forum can handle (online or otherwise) the healthier it is.
    Perhaps you would enjoy INTPc more?

    I don't see the point of stirring up dissension just for shits and giggles.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
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  5. #65
    Senior Member Sahara's Avatar
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    I noticed that some of you are still falling for the "misunderstood Sona", and for the Cultural relativism that is so pervasive in PC society. I hate to break it to you, but I don't work on those systems, I passed the "misunderstood sona" ages ago, and believe you me, in time you will too. I will not make allowances for him based on his culture as I was raised in the same culture, as were many ex muslims, and yes even some muslims (who don't act like him), and I am nothing like that, I broke free, because I could see what was wrong. I have no forgiveness for people like him.

    I could link you to things he has said in the past that are disgusting, and even if it is JUST to get a reaction (which I dont believe since I come from that culture and know how guys like him think) I still see that as inherently wrong and worthy of a reaction in itself.

    It's no game to say that a child is ready for sex, or that raping captives is A OK because it is serving the female captives sexual needs too, it is no game to me, and I will respond to him.

    Those of you who still think he is "poor sona" haven't known him for as long as I have.

    It's not about who has the most superior culture to be honest, the core of it is about who has the better humanity, and yes damn it, I do believe that his humanity is severely inferior.

    That's my 2 pence worth for the night, I am off to bed.
    "No one can be free of the chains that surround them"

  6. #66
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    Am I the lone voice?
    No, I agree in principle. But I don't accept the double standard. You will support disruptive, net negative behaviour for your ideal of tolerance and what not... I will not. I may not agree with how it was dealt with as a group, but the source of it this is that we tolerate that behaviour. The reflection is just that - tolerance. The people delt with bad behaviour in their own way. Many like the confrontation... many versus the few. The few being ones who come onto the board and intentionally insult and throw things up in the air... for just a reaction.

    I don't tolerate that well. I'm tolerating this as much as I am because I think the intentions are genuine. The people you used for examples were decidedly not at the time you were reading the posts... all of them are better now, mind you, since it has been made clear what the lines are.

    The solution you offer is reduced to simply banning him or unning him off the board. A reduction of tolerance. You offer a complaint but no solution. The solutions you talk about were tried... for years! Not a single occasion, dozens.

    If you do go to INTPc, look at the names of the people who migrated here. Almost all of them left because of serious issues over exactly what you are talking about. These people here were the 'champions' of the downtrodden. Many, including myself, have been vocal against the things you are talking about.

    I believe you are seeing ghosts - maybe because you aren't familiar, maybe because it touches a nerve. I understand that - you can read my posts on bullying to understand how deep it goes in me - but I think it is completely out of context...

    There are, however, cases where things do go too far. Posts are flying by today... I've posted in a dozen or so threads. The few that do get out of hand are tolerated for a while, then eventually moved to the GY or fluff zone. Things move on. It's rare and it's like having a flair of tempers in RL. The members you mention are responsible for the majority of those issues. Maybe the group shouldn't jump onto such inflamatory bad behaviour... but the alternative is to ban people for any rule deviation. If you tolerate an individual, you tolerate the group; the group is merely a collection of individuals.

    As such, I disagree with the overall view of an issue.

  7. #67
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    There are some dramatic backstories, but i deliberately forget most of them.

    BlueWing is awesome. He's one of my favorite people and i enjoy chatting with him. Unfortunately i've been rather busy/distracted lately. He's interesting and sincere and thorough in his intellectual pursuits and analysis. I notice certain friction between certain posters, but rarely share the sentiments.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
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    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
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  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    Park, it seems like both of us have grown a little weary of our attempts to understand each other, but I really dislike not understanding someone, and not being understood.
    Understood and I'm the same.

    As I've said before, I didn't realize that it was "low" (honest). Frankly, I still don't undesrtand, since I personally have only been on this forum for just over a month (still in evaluation phase), and was, in all honesty, simply stating my opinions (obvious or not). Many people state what is going on in their heads with as much misunderstanding. I found it relavent, since much of the motivation was also to keep this forum an "inviting" place. I thought I was pointing out a potential failure in this regard.
    I know and I simply tried to point out that skepticism and doubts can be brought up without bringing in the heavy "if you don't - I'll leave" ammunition. In many situations in life - friendships, romantic relationships etc. it's usually the last option you pull out and in less intimate relations, it can come across a rather dramatic.

    The fact that you didn't (past tense, I hope) believe I am being honest about my intentions hurts me (this statement, I also, consider fitting the pattern of leveling).
    If you had keept that Ti under control it could have been but the last little analyze turned it into an intellectualization - sorry.

    The main thing I would like, is for you to believe that my intentions were good, if nothing else.
    Bah, being severly amoral you really don't want me to rate your intentions.

    So you believe, my intentions were good?
    In the big picture yes, as I said all along, it was your method I disliked.
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    You appear to have a very limited vocabulary and lack the ability to identify the correct responses for a variety of different questions. A deficient vocabulary can hinder you in many ways; you may struggle to find the correct words when speaking, fail to understand what others are communicating to you, or come across as inarticulate to others.

  9. #69
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    Perhaps you would enjoy INTPc more?
    I doubt that. INTPc is far worse / caustic.

    I think everyone would benefit from just letting things go for a little bit. Right now, the conversation does seem played out; and I think some of us are immersed far enough into things that some space would do everyone good, perspective-wise.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I doubt that. INTPc is far worse / caustic.
    Come on... INTPC is a nice place to relax a worn out Fe and engage into INTP type debates.

    I think everyone would benefit from just letting things go for a little bit. Right now, the conversation does seem played out; and I think some of us are immersed far enough into things that some space would do everyone good, perspective-wise.
    only if you pat me on the head and buy me and ice cream.
    Verbal IQ Test

    SubFacor IQ score = 65
    Subscale percentile = 1

    You appear to have a very limited vocabulary and lack the ability to identify the correct responses for a variety of different questions. A deficient vocabulary can hinder you in many ways; you may struggle to find the correct words when speaking, fail to understand what others are communicating to you, or come across as inarticulate to others.

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