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  1. #51
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    What I meant was:

    define: groupthink - Google Search

    Fourth definition down. The new idea I mean, is the controversial kernel that may be embeded in an otherwise infalmatory post.
    Do you really believe that is the case here? I just ask because your OP was about BW, which was obviously not groupthink - many agreed with you. But a few mentioned, and I quote a couple of messages, that BW/SW was disruptive and insulting. Then you brought up Sona and Uber, both of which had limited disruptions that were toned down a bit after finding out what was acceptable. And acceptable is so loose to include some pretty out there things, things that would be a perma-ban in most forums.

    Santtu's post was unfortunate, but even so, reading it now... I'm still at a loss of words. It was accusatory, quotes out of context... It's not a favorable way to foster communication and so... communication failed.

    So I don't know what your point really is... if there is one tangible thing my S brain can grasp, it's that it is possible that sometimes people do railroad members more than it should happen... and yes, it does happen from time to time. I don't agree with the particulars and I certainly don't see it as cultural... so in the end, I just don't really understand.

    Course, it is in the fluff zone, so I shouldn't take it too seriously... but I, as an ISTP, only have two modes: Fun and Serious

    I don't spend a lot of time on forums, and this is the first one. So maybe that is true. But I have seen, the "In Real Life" version, of what I am talking about, and it fits.
    Forums are notorious for the behaviour you are describing... so maybe some desensitization is happening here...

    A lot of it has to do with a change in communication style. One of the first rules - benefit of the doubt. Most people don't mean things badly but it is easy to take written communication out of context.

    Why? is what I am asking.
    *shrug* Why is it wrong to tell your mate that if they don't do "this", then they are leaving? Same principle.

    It goes along these lines; no one really cares... there is no need to bring it up. To bring it up is simply extremely bad manners, manipulative and is not seen in a very good light at all. Good communcation online requires a different set of rules... Instead it created an immediate us vs you, etc in a thread that broaches that topic.

    If you will, you broke an unwritten taboo about open ended forums, that's all. No big deal, really... it's another thing about forums - small differences somehow become giant.

    (FWIW, Park's native language isn't English, so it may be difficult to communicate across that.)

    If it is a natural part of human dynamics, It is a part of normal human dynamic I find to be wrong, and quite a bit more dangerous than a few unsavory characters. Keep in mind you were about to do the Santtu the very same thing. It is akin to me to the "loudest OP wins" in real life, or the ones with the most "social capital" unwittingly (or perhaps on purpose) controling points of view.
    *shrug* Santtu and I don't see eye to eye for most things, I think we are very different people. But we can talk, still. A disagreement there isn't a universal disagreement. I've fought bitterly and fiery with one member only to support them in something else... if anything, that's the norm.

  2. #52
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    Maybe I did pick people who were not conducive to my point. But I picked them specifically because they were controversial. I think many of the points they brought up despite being brought up in an unsavory manor were real points where other people may have agrred. But the people who post most quickly dominated those discussion so quickly and early, and with such derission that others who may have agreed on some parts felt afraid to post similar opinions to the target...
    OK, I'm beginning to see what you're saying now.

    I know that with Sona, for example, I think more people tend to single out and berate his religious beliefs (I'm not condoning his beliefs) because it's an easy target and makes some feel superior because their beliefs are so much more "advanced" and free-thinking. Those are big buzz words around here. He also likes to throw out grenades that he knows will get people fired up. We seem to have members clamoring to throw themselves on top of the bomb, saving the rest of the forumites from certain destruction. I understand you to be saying that people are too caught up in "I don't like this poster" to recognize if what they're saying has any merit, capitalize on that, and change the course of discussion into something more constructive. OTOH, I've also seen people sympathetically counsel posters that I think should be long gone.

    How do you suggest making MBTIc and all-types community when inflammatory posts and posters denigrating other types (or any other 'ism') are not censured? When discussions turn into "xxxx type is incapable of doing this" then discussions turn toxic and become unfruitful. Same thing with any topic that strikes close to home (religion, sex, race, gender, etc.). People get touchy, often rightly so. Censuring and "ganging up" on people are two different things. As Jennifer has already stated, we mods discuss and hash out what is genuinely disruptive behavior and what is unpopular but still has a right to be expressed. I think the leadership on this forum is very tolerant of different viewpoints, but at some point you've got to put your foot down.

    I'm a huge proponent of making the atmosphere on the forum as comfortable for all types and people as possible. The people you are defending have been disruptive in a bad way at various points in the forum's past. It's a good that we're having a discussion like this because as the forum grows this type of thing is not likely to go away. In the future, maybe n00bs will open this thread and think this is a chill place to spend some time, that the posters do ask important questions about the future of the forum and are invested in seeing it succeed.

    Personally, I like a little drama every now and then because life is so humdrum and people need to be shaken out of their comas. Subtly and gentle prodding does not always work. I didn't think you were being overly dramatic in your OP and you've proven to be a solid poster. You won't find this type of metacognating on many other forums. Very self-aware this forum is.
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  3. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    Do you really believe that is the case here? I just ask because your OP was about BW, which was obviously not groupthink - many agreed with you. But a few mentioned, and I quote a couple of messages, that BW/SW was disruptive and insulting. Then you brought up Sona and Uber, both of which had limited disruptions that were toned down a bit after finding out what was acceptable. And acceptable is so loose to include some pretty out there things, things that would be a perma-ban in most forums.
    I do really believe that I have been on the recieving end of group-think.

    Discussion forums in general are not as open as I thought. I piciked the people I did for the same reason that Larry Flint became a free speech icon.

    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    Santtu's post was unfortunate, but even so, reading it now... I'm still at a loss of words. It was accusatory, quotes out of context... It's not a favorable way to foster communication and so... communication failed.
    Two wrongs don't make a right. The same was true of the responses to him.

    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    So I don't know what your point really is... if there is one tangible thing my S brain can grasp, it's that it is possible that sometimes people do railroad members more than it should happen... and yes, it does happen from time to time. I don't agree with the particulars and I certainly don't see it as cultural... so in the end, I just don't really understand.
    Some examples specific to SW:
    There is a whole locked down thread intended as an indictment of SW (and many people were allowed to join in on that).

    There is also a whole thread on the worthwhileness of SW, where again many people joined in on criticism. If that happened to me, I would become really combative too. We are human beings, with human failings. Is that really appropirate, even if he was being a jerk? Quite frankly, it was reading that thread that lead me to start this one. It was quite frighteneing to behold.

    There is nothing anyone could possibly do on a forum, that could warrrant that treatment.

    It is more dangeroues to have groups reigning free than individuals.

    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    Course, it is in the fluff zone, so I shouldn't take it too seriously... but I, as an ISTP, only have two modes: Fun and Serious
    I posted in "fluff zone" because I didn't want to post in graveyard, and the down below section is not visible to guests. I didn't want to scare people. Some thought was put into the original post, it was not a half-cocked rant.

    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    Forums are notorious for the behaviour you are describing... so maybe some desensitization is happening here...

    A lot of it has to do with a change in communication style. One of the first rules - benefit of the doubt. Most people don't mean things badly but it is easy to take written communication out of context.


    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    *shrug* Why is it wrong to tell your mate that if they don't do "this", then they are leaving? Same principle.

    It goes along these lines; no one really cares... there is no need to bring it up. To bring it up is simply extremely bad manners, manipulative and is not seen in a very good light at all. Good communcation online requires a different set of rules... Instead it created an immediate us vs you, etc in a thread that broaches that topic.

    If you will, you broke an unwritten taboo about open ended forums, that's all. No big deal, really... it's another thing about forums - small differences somehow become giant.
    Interesting point. I think this little taboo, being blown up as big as it did was another thing I was bringing up as "group-think". And being on the recieving end, only served to produce anger on top of the fear I already had.


    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    (FWIW, Park's native language isn't English, so it may be difficult to communicate across that.)
    Mine isn't either. I empathize. But, I still didn't understand her.

    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    *shrug* Santtu and I don't see eye to eye for most things, I think we are very different people. But we can talk, still. A disagreement there isn't a universal disagreement. I've fought bitterly and fiery with one member only to support them in something else... if anything, that's the norm.
    I know individuals may disagree at some point and agrre at others. But what I find scary is the ferocity of personal attacks that happen after a faux pa, or even a strongly worded rant. Totally out of proprtion, IMO.

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  4. #54
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post

    Some examples specific to SW:
    There is a whole locked down thread intended as an indictment of SW (and many people were allowed to join in on that).

    There is also a whole thread on the worthwhileness of SW, where again many people joined in on criticism. If that happened to me, I would become really combative too. We are human beings, with human failings. Is that really appropirate, even if he was being a jerk? Quite frankly, it was reading that thread that lead me to start this one. It was quite frighteneing to behold.
    Oh yah, that's after he called Fs useless, I think. I wanted to ban him. Looks like that would of been the better solution. *shrug* (though if you have links, I'll double check why). Although, I think maybe he was banned after a while... I know quite a few of his personal attacks were removed, anyway.


    Interesting point. I think this little taboo, being blown up as big as it did was another thing I was bringing up as "group-think". And being on the recieving end, only served to produce anger on top of the fear I already had.
    Yeesh. It's the same on any forum. Some forums ban you if you utter those words, even in jest. You are saying that people not liking swearing on playgrounds suffer from groupthink. Even if you could define it that way, the essence is missing.

  5. #55
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    You guys bring it on yourselves.

    One one hand you all allow topics like "Har Har Har Top 10 reasons why XXXX suxxorz" and everyone has a ball ..

    On the other hand somebody comes in and goes "OMFGZZ I F'IN HATE XXXX CUZ THEY SUXXORSZ" and people become defensive ..

    You know, it can't really be both ways .. Thats why "racist" jokes (for example) stop being funny as soon as a member of the target race can't find the humor in it ..

    Maybe topic titles should contain disclaimers? "Warning, the following topic contains inflammatory humor .. Leave your intellectual seriousness at the door" ..

  6. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    OK, I'm beginning to see what you're saying now.

    I know that with Sona, for example, I think more people tend to single out and berate his religious beliefs (I'm not condoning his beliefs) because it's an easy target and makes some feel superior because their beliefs are so much more "advanced" and free-thinking. Those are big buzz words around here. He also likes to throw out grenades that he knows will get people fired up. We seem to have members clamoring to throw themselves on top of the bomb, saving the rest of the forumites from certain destruction. I understand you to be saying that people are too caught up in "I don't like this poster" to recognize if what they're saying has any merit, capitalize on that, and change the course of discussion into something more constructive. OTOH, I've also seen people sympathetically counsel posters that I think should be long gone.
    I am begining to find out that online forums are not really open places for discussion. If this is one of the better ones, I am really dissapointed the state of free discourse online.

    Granted, I am not a good reader of people.

    But here is my read on Sona: He comes from a very wealthy background and a family with certain views on women. I come from a similar background (though don't share his views on women).

    The type of stuff he says is often similar to what I hear frustrated middle easterners and Indians in the U.S. or western culture says. Frankly, I find some of his antics as "trolling", but a lot of it is just a very different point of view.

    I see him as troubled to a large extent both by having "too easy" a lifestyle and by a clash of cultures that can leave someone rudderless and with no clear sense of values.

    My read on Uberfuhrer: A very frustrated Aspie, looking to seem more "interesting" in ways that are not always approprate. Also, someone I can identify with, being a possible Aspie myself. I know real life Aspies that would make his Nazi fixation seem mild. I worry about him. But I don't think some of his treatment was fair.

    My read on SW/BW: I think a potential Aspie or Autistic person, as well. Very interested in philosophy to point of seeing little value in anything else. He projected this belief into his interpretation of MBTI (like I said, I could see myself doing that to in my younger years, and maybe still do to some extent, without being aware of it). I think the treatment he got was mainly due to misinterpreteation leading to a personalized battle.

    Perhaps these three individuals resent me using them as examples (for that I appologize).

    I still believe a few unsavory characters is better than the tyrany of the majority.

    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    How do you suggest making MBTIc and all-types community when inflammatory posts and posters denigrating other types (or any other 'ism') are not censured? When discussions turn into "xxxx type is incapable of doing this" then discussions turn toxic and become unfruitful. Same thing with any topic that strikes close to home (religion, sex, race, gender, etc.). People get touchy, often rightly so. Censuring and "ganging up" on people are two different things. As Jennifer has already stated, we mods discuss and hash out what is genuinely disruptive behavior and what is unpopular but still has a right to be expressed. I think the leadership on this forum is very tolerant of different viewpoints, but at some point you've got to put your foot down.
    I don't like that either. But I think the best way to difuse such situations is to reprimand the intolerance without dishing out our own (it is very hypocritical if you think about it). We can take the raw, real feelings and let go of the hyperbole, bombast, and initial personal attack. Not addressing real issues just lead to this violent "pendulum" behavior I am all to familar in real life. All sides need to be heard, no matter how unsavory.

    The two threads dedicated to SW-bashing are prime examples of ganging-up. I see it hard to make a case otherwise.

    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    I'm a huge proponent of making the atmosphere on the forum as comfortable for all types and people as possible. The people you are defending have been disruptive in a bad way at various points in the forum's past. It's a good that we're having a discussion like this because as the forum grows this type of thing is not likely to go away. In the future, maybe n00bs will open this thread and think this is a chill place to spend some time, that the posters do ask important questions about the future of the forum and are invested in seeing it succeed.

    Personally, I like a little drama every now and then because life is so humdrum and people need to be shaken out of their comas. Subtly and gentle prodding does not always work. I didn't think you were being overly dramatic in your OP and you've proven to be a solid poster. You won't find this type of metacognating on many other forums. Very self-aware this forum is.
    I am glad some people find this of value. My intention was not to be a troll.

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  7. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    Oh yah, that's after he called Fs useless, I think. I wanted to ban him. Looks like that would of been the better solution. *shrug* (though if you have links, I'll double check why). Although, I think maybe he was banned after a while... I know quite a few of his personal attacks were removed, anyway.
    Still a whole thread dedicated to SW-bashing after that. Overkill, I think.

    What if he actually, believed that "Fs are useless" (a sad belief indeed)? Did we examine and correct his thinking? or did we just rail against him as a form of punative measure or revenge? It is hard to tell from the record, but it seems like the latter.

    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    Yeesh. It's the same on any forum. Some forums ban you if you utter those words, even in jest. You are saying that people not liking swearing on playgrounds suffer from groupthink. Even if you could define it that way, the essence is missing.
    I believe you comparison of my first post to "Cursing on the playground" is rather much, espeacially since you also said it wasn't ill-manered.

    It was meant to get attention, that is it. I know now, that it is ill-advised on this forum.

    It seems, you and I have different interpretations of group-think.

    Groupthink - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Groupthink is a type of thought exhibited by group members who try to minimize conflict and reach consensus without critically testing, analyzing, and evaluating ideas. During Groupthink, members of the group avoid promoting viewpoints outside the comfort zone of consensus thinking.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
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    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    This is how I interpreted you're crtique (please feel free to correct my interpretation of your POV)...

    "You're language was too strong for the purposes you intended."

    To which, I react, "so?"
    Personally, I find it a bit low to threaten to leave the board due to possible flawed perceptions but that's just one thing. What strike me as ironic is that you, that very same day, start up another thread where you describe yourself as "an intellectual who understands the value of levelling".
    Off course, if a request for coherence is meet with the same "so?" - no need to take this part of the debate any further really.

    "You are using guilt manipulation."

    To which I react, "How?" I have some understanding of that, now. But I wasn't attempting to induce guilt.
    I usually never chop up things like this but here goes:

    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    I am slowly learning there is a sordid and rather revenge-filled history with personal back stories on this forum. Maybe fit for a drama of sorts (for writers on this board).

    I think I have soft spots for people who seemed to have been or are being personally abused on this forum (and I'm not sure why they put up with it).
    You concluded allready at this point that this board has a revenge-filled history and that members were being abused. We are being made aware where your sympathy lies and why the (non-existant?) abused put up with it is beyond you'r understanding. So allready at this point, it's you and the (non-existant?) abused against the (non-existant?) abusers.

    It seemed to me, that SolitaryWalker was one of these people. What happened to him/her?

    I saw a post on BlueWing's blog, which made me wonder.
    At this point, SW is possibly just one among many (non-existant?) abused and you would really like to know what happened to him. Who better to ask than his, by now, guilty (non-existant?) abusers?

    I am seriously questioning whether I should stick around here. This forum has a culture I was unaware of, and I am not sure I like the culture.
    This is where your suspicion and disgust towards the culture which fosters these (non-existant?) abusers reach new hights and in order to emphazise how serious you are, you threaten to leave.

    Can anyone enlighten me on the detailed drama of this forum?
    Perhaps you could have started the debate by simply asking this question without the subtle accusations, guilt tripping, threats and drama?

    "You are being distracting."

    To which I react, "From what?"
    You know, I'm actually beginning to believe you when you claim to not understand parts of what I'm writing. So never mind...

    I also still feel some sort of personal disdain. I hope it is just my imagination.
    It is.
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  9. #59
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    Still a whole thread dedicated to SW-bashing after that. Overkill, I think.

    What if he actually, believed that "Fs are useless" (a sad belief indeed)? Did we examine and correct his thinking? or did we just rail against him as a form of punative measure or revenge? It is hard to tell from the record, but it seems like the latter.
    Yup, three years (that's about right, isn't it? An old timer can tell me, I think he was around before I was) wasn't long enough to explain it to him... *nod* Nevermind the split of the forums to stop exactly what he was doing. And nevermind multiple time outs, a ban or two, a whole lot of PMs, a whole lot of public reprisals...

    I'd have to read the link to be sure what it was mocking of his posts but I'm pretty sure it was.

    I believe you comparison of my first post to "Cursing on the playground" is rather much, espeacially since you also said it wasn't ill-manered.
    I was comparing your definition of group think, not your post. You said that this forum is exhibiting group think; I said that the example you gave doesn't apply because this is an unwritten form across all forums (and is one of the greatest pet peeves on the internet - there are memes on this now; "Can I have your stuff?", etc.) and therefore is not localised groupthink.

    The analogy was to point out that social conventions could be considered "groupthink" but if that is how you are using it, then I think group think is good. We have social rules for a reason - like not swearing at a playground. There are no signs, there are no laws (?)... it's social awareness. Like I said, no big deal really, especially if you aren't familiar with the rules. You asked why it was jumped on and that's why - it is akin to breaking a rather universal rule.

  10. #60

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    Park, it seems like both of us have grown a little weary of our attempts to understand each other, but I really dislike not understanding someone, and not being understood.

    Quote Originally Posted by Park View Post
    Personally, I find it a bit low to threaten to leave the board due to possible flawed perceptions but that's just one thing.
    As I've said before, I didn't realize that it was "low" (honest). Frankly, I still don't undesrtand, since I personally have only been on this forum for just over a month (still in evaluation phase), and was, in all honesty, simply stating my opinions (obvious or not). Many people state what is going on in their heads with as much misunderstanding. I found it relavent, since much of the motivation was also to keep this forum an "inviting" place. I thought I was pointing out a potential failure in this regard.

    The fact that you didn't (past tense, I hope) believe I am being honest about my intentions hurts me (this statement, I also, consider fitting the pattern of leveling).

    Quote Originally Posted by Park View Post
    What strike me as ironic is that you, that very same day, start up another thread where you describe yourself as "an intellectual who understands the value of levelling".
    Off course, if a request for coherence is meet with the same "so?" - no need to take this part of the debate any further really.
    Strong language and leveling go hand-in-hand. That's why I didn't see the irony. "Emotional Content, not anger." My main feeling was fear, actually. I though I was pretty successful in only using "I" statements. But upon reading it in the morning, the words "sordid history" were inflamatory (still the feeling behind those words were due to a mix a fear and outrage at reading the SW dedicated threads)

    Quote Originally Posted by Park View Post
    I usually never chop up things like this but here goes:



    You concluded allready at this point that this board has a revenge-filled history and that members were being abused. We are being made aware where your sympathy lies and why the (non-existant?) abused put up with it is beyond you'r understanding. So allready at this point, it's you and the (non-existant?) abused against the (non-existant?) abusers.
    They weren't meant as "conclusions", but plausible suppositions, I wanted people to clarify. It was late, and I probably should have provided more details. I was talking about SW, Sona, and Uberfuhrer for being the most conspicuous, but I have seen similar things happen in small bursts to Crabapple, Oberon, digesthisickness, and Athenian.


    Quote Originally Posted by Park View Post
    At this point, SW is possibly just one among many (non-existant?) abused and you would really like to know what happened to him. Who better to ask than his, by now, guilty (non-existant?) abusers?
    This is actually pretty acurate (except perhaps the non-existant part, or them being "conclusions"), but I hope you can see why I said what I did. I wanted clarification, and I have gotten some. Knowing what I do now, I would rephrase my 1st post, but I don't think I was agregiously wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Park View Post
    This is where your suspicion and disgust towards the culture which fosters these (non-existant?) abusers reach new hights and in order to emphazise how serious you are, you threaten to leave.
    Again, a fair characterization, except, my threat, was meant to show that in an attempt at being "inviting" that people on the forum can also put off people by the particular tactics used.

    Quote Originally Posted by Park View Post
    Perhaps you could have started the debate by simply asking this question without the subtle accusations, guilt tripping, threats and drama?
    I hope at this point, you realize I wasn't aiming to induce guilt but to connect to the objective of this forum as being "inviting" and being couter-productive towards those ends due to the tactics used.

    Quote Originally Posted by Park View Post
    You know, I'm actually beginning to believe you when you claim to not understand parts of what I'm writing. So never mind...
    As in, I was rapidly switching between the various modes? Perhaps, I am not that well practiced at leveling. I was honestly intending to level the whole time.

    The main thing I would like, is for you to believe that my intentions were good, if nothing else.


    Quote Originally Posted by Park View Post
    It is.
    So you believe, my intentions were good?

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
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