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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    I found no force behind the so-called "threat" of leaving the forum (It is, just a forum, people).
    Hmmm, many of us spend a considerable amount of time here and on the INTPC debating and socializing. People meet up IRL, make friends - even find partners so I gues many of us perceive the word *just* as a bit insufficient.

    I hope you believe me. But I sense some animosity from you.

    True, Park?
    No, not directed towards you as a person but as I said, directed towards the method you used to catch people's attention. In allmost every connection, it is understood that we *can* just leave, walk away if we dislike or disapprove of the people we are with so bringing it up, like you did, has an invalidating and threatening effect. That's also the only reason why I brought up my family, it is allways understood that a person *can* take the final ride if a person feels like it but bringing it up has a similar (allthough granted, a lot more extreme) effect.
    Verbal IQ Test

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    Subscale percentile = 1

    You appear to have a very limited vocabulary and lack the ability to identify the correct responses for a variety of different questions. A deficient vocabulary can hinder you in many ways; you may struggle to find the correct words when speaking, fail to understand what others are communicating to you, or come across as inarticulate to others.

  2. #42
    Senior Member Recluse's Avatar
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    I'm oblivious to the many shades of meaning of the sundry social interactions of those around me.

    I don't know who likes/dislikes anyone else--including myself.

    Probably I have some autistic-like trait that filters out that content. People baffle the hell out of me.
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    I didn't say that I didn't say it. I said that I didn't say that I said it. I want to make that very clear.

  3. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by Park View Post
    Hmmm, many of us spend a considerable amount of time here and on the INTPC debating and socializing. People meet up IRL, make friends - even find partners so I gues many of us perceive the word *just* as a bit insufficient.



    No, not directed towards you as a person but as I said, directed towards the method you used to catch people's attention. In allmost every connection, it is understood that we *can* just leave, walk away if we dislike or disapprove of the people we are with so bringing it up, like you did, has an invalidating and threatening effect. That's also the only reason why I brought up my family, it is allways understood that a person *can* take the final ride if a person feels like it but bringing it up has a similar (allthough granted, a lot more extreme) effect.
    It was meant to capture attention, but not to produce guilt. I hope you believe me. I am sorry if it touched a sore spot in doing so.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
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    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  4. #44
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    1) When multiple people try to "correct" someone at the same time without giving adequate explanation of why their behavior is wrong(only "adequate" if the explanation is understood by the target individual) the results are often counter-productive, and can degrade into the person feeling like it is the individual vs. the group (entrenching the behavior). There are better ways to correct behavior.
    I do agree at times that this does occur. I consider it more to be the dynamics of the posting forum -- everyone feels entitled to their particular say (because that is what a forum is), and they are not particularly thinking about the overall big picture.

    Also, it's easy to say your piece without even paying attention or realizing that 50 other people have just said the same thing.

    So I think sometimes it can be unavoidable, due to the nature of this social interaction.

    (And also, well, it did not help that the three examples you chose happened to be bad ones. I know I have stumbled into the same thing on INTPc -- making an important case but just making it in defense of the wrong people. So I still do see your point; I just think defending Uber, Sona, and BW undermined your case.)


    2) I see this style of "one vs. many" as being the norm on this forum (I could even point to this thread as an example, but pick any thread where an individual has a controversial opinion). I think this style is counter-productive in getting individuals to change behavior or opinion.... etc
    Well, probably it is. Then again, what is the point of the interaction? Do people actually want to shut up another person? Do they want to just argue a POV? Are they venting? It's hard to tell.

    As a mod, I can tell you that I have sat there through most of this and debated each time I posted whether or not I should. The criteria is not "Do I have a valid and useful POV to contribute?" but "In the big picture, would contributing right now help or hinder things?"

    Sometimes other people have said similar things that I am thinking, and my contribution might have seemed like one more person joining the group tackle. I did not want that.

    On the other hand, it does mean something when more than one person criticizes a particular post. It definitely gets across the point that what was said was something that struck many people wrong. Is it incorrect for them to express their viewpoint and convey this to the OP?

    It seems to be a very complicated dynamic here, not quite as simple as you are viewing it. I guess I am saying that this particular style of communication has flaws, and this is one of them. I think you will have to resign yourself to some degree of this occurring. (It's occurred on every other forum I've seen.)

    Note: It tends to not happen as much in real-life... or at least should not be EQUATED to the same style of etiquette in real life. [I.e., in real life, it would be inappropriate for every person in a group of people to whack a dissenter. But this is not physical life, real life, whatever. The etiquette and dynamics are different online, dictated by the mode of interaction. What would be rude/offensive IRL is somewhat different online. I think part of the problem is that you might be viewing online forum interaction the same as a group of people sitting together in a large room. It's not the same thing, really.]

    Does any of that help?

    If it means anything, I think the discussion is getting lots of ideas in the open and challenging how people instinctively view these things. So for a momentary focus of discussion, this has not been a detrimental thing.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  5. #45
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    I am answering without having reading all posts in this thread, but I wanted to say some things:
    I 've noticed that many of the members both here and in intpc, are very young, and many of the things they say I sometimes consider them as not very thouroughtly thought, because I think teenagers sometimes can be a little exagerrating or over-reacting.
    I also think a young member who has just been introduced to a system like MBTI, which gives them tools to type/categorise/understand people/self, can be more prone to fall in stereotypes.
    And the reaction against some of the members is more a personal thing of each one. Myself I can sometimes react a bit stronger than usual in some statements and I think anybody else can do just the same.
    It's just a forum, after all. Just a "social" interaction. I don't see why should we take some things so seriously.

  6. #46
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    It is group-think when the calling-down procedure turns into a chorus.
    No, it's not. (group think). Just because multiple people disagree and contribute towards it doesn't make it group think.

    Park disagrees with what you have said for entirely seperate reasons (although I agree with the underlying message she is posting), whereas I simply don't understand what you are referring to. It isn't group think because we agree, anymore than it would be group think if a lot of people agreed with you.

    It would require me disagreeing with you simply because others disagree with you. This forum has very very little group think relative to most forums.

    1) When multiple people try to "correct" someone at the same time without giving adequate explanation of why their behavior is wrong(only "adequate" if the explanation is understood by the target individual) the results are often counter-productive, and can degrade into the person feeling like it is the individual vs. the group (entrenching the behavior). There are better ways to correct behavior.
    Agreed. And that happened with Sona, that happened with BW/SW, and that happened with Uber. In private, in public and so forth...

    It sometimes fails. It is certainly not the norm here, far as I can tell. If anything, the opposite is very much the norm, discussions like the one we are having now are constant and most views that can be talked about are... often very touchy and personal issues get talked about.

    2) I see this style of "one vs. many" as being the norm on this forum (I could even point to this thread as an example, but pick any thread where an individual has a controversial opinion).
    Picking a topic that most won't agree with you on will invite "one vs many". It's like saying that scientific community is being unfair to flat earth simply because most people don't believe in "flat earth". I disagree because I have seen the real version of what you are complaining about - we are talking outright attacks on people, the bullying, the supporters of the bullies.

    It's something I'm very sensitive to and I simply don't see it here. So yes, I disagree. Would you rather me stay silent, avoid commenting on everything I agree with? Should I not post my views because others have expressed similar, if not exactly the same views?

    Do you think I was ill-mannered to post the first post in this thread (honestly)?
    Nope, though the style didn't sit well...

    If so, do you think all the responses I got were well-mannered?
    Neutral, rather like your OP... And a mix. It's not a fixed dynamic.

    I personally think this is just a heated discussion. I think often, we gang-up on on ill-mannered post in a thread (often with ill-mannered responses) and do not do anything about ill-mannered responses in the "gang". This is the norm, pick a controversial post where this pattern isn't followed. This is the culture I am talking about.
    Yes... you are correct, and this thread shows it. People reflect the OP. People are emotional. However, threads can also be split between camps. However, it's not about a dedicated group attacking the smaller group - the groups change. Sometimes it's even, sometimes not.

    I don't see this as cultural, I see it as the normal dynamics of human interaction.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    It was meant to capture attention, but not to produce guilt. I hope you believe me. I am sorry if it touched a sore spot in doing so.
    Hmm, I gues I would be fooling nobody (myself included) if I said you didn't managed to do that but that's not your fault. I'd probably still be debating heavily with you for starting up a thread on shaky ground even if my background had been different. Seriously don't worry about that part .
    Verbal IQ Test

    SubFacor IQ score = 65
    Subscale percentile = 1

    You appear to have a very limited vocabulary and lack the ability to identify the correct responses for a variety of different questions. A deficient vocabulary can hinder you in many ways; you may struggle to find the correct words when speaking, fail to understand what others are communicating to you, or come across as inarticulate to others.

  8. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I do agree at times that this does occur. I consider it more to be the dynamics of the posting forum -- everyone feels entitled to their particular say (because that is what a forum is), and they are not particularly thinking about the overall big picture.

    Also, it's easy to say your piece without even paying attention or realizing that 50 other people have just said the same thing.

    So I think sometimes it can be unavoidable, due to the nature of this social interaction.

    (And also, well, it did not help that the three examples you chose happened to be bad ones. I know I have stumbled into the same thing on INTPc -- making an important case but just making it in defense of the wrong people. So I still do see your point; I just think defending Uber, Sona, and BW undermined your case.)
    Maybe I did pick people who were not conducive to my point. But I picked them specifically because they were controversial. I think many of the points they brought up despite being brought up in an unsavory manor were real points where other people may have agrred. But the people who post most quickly dominated those discussion so quickly and early, and with such derission that others who may have agreed on some parts felt afraid to post similar opinions to the target.



    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Well, probably it is. Then again, what is the point of the interaction? Do people actually want to shut up another person? Do they want to just argue a POV? Are they venting? It's hard to tell.

    As a mod, I can tell you that I have sat there through most of this and debated each time I posted whether or not I should. The criteria is not "Do I have a valid and useful POV to contribute?" but "In the big picture, would contributing right now help or hinder things?"

    Sometimes other people have said similar things that I am thinking, and my contribution might have seemed like one more person joining the group tackle. I did not want that.

    On the other hand, it does mean something when more than one person criticizes a particular post. It definitely gets across the point that what was said was something that struck many people wrong. Is it incorrect for them to express their viewpoint and convey this to the OP?

    It seems to be a very complicated dynamic here, not quite as simple as you are viewing it. I guess I am saying that this particular style of communication has flaws, and this is one of them. I think you will have to resign yourself to some degree of this occurring. (It's occurred on every other forum I've seen.)

    Note: It tends to not happen as much in real-life... or at least should not be EQUATED to the same style of etiquette in real life. [I.e., in real life, it would be inappropriate for every person in a group of people to whack a dissenter. But this is not physical life, real life, whatever. The etiquette and dynamics are different online, dictated by the mode of interaction. What would be rude/offensive IRL is somewhat different online. I think part of the problem is that you might be viewing online forum interaction the same as a group of people sitting together in a large room. It's not the same thing, really.]

    Does any of that help?

    If it means anything, I think the discussion is getting lots of ideas in the open and challenging how people instinctively view these things. So for a momentary focus of discussion, this has not been a detrimental thing.
    Maybe I just have to get used to forum dynamics. But even if this type of thing happens in all forums, I find that it has a homogonizing effect. The homogonizing effect of getting the "forum" opinion to match those of the post frequent posters when someone new posts something they would disagree with.

    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    No, it's not. (group think).
    What I meant was:

    define: groupthink - Google Search

    Fourth definition down. The new idea I mean, is the controversial kernel that may be embeded in an otherwise infalmatory post.

    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    Just because multiple people disagree and contribute towards it doesn't make it group think.
    It does if people are intolerant of entertaining the new idea. (See definition above)

    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    Park disagrees with what you have said for entirely seperate reasons (although I agree with the underlying message she is posting), whereas I simply don't understand what you are referring to. It isn't group think because we agree, anymore than it would be group think if a lot of people agreed with you.
    I am still not sure what she means. Was I too provokative, or something?

    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    It would require me disagreeing with you simply because others disagree with you. This forum has very very little group think relative to most forums.
    That would certainly make things worse. But I have seen the same dynamic in real life. Upon intial impression many people simultaneously dispute an idea, and the person, and others who may agree with her shuts down. It kills diversity of opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    Agreed. And that happened with Sona, that happened with BW/SW, and that happened with Uber. In private, in public and so forth...

    It sometimes fails. It is certainly not the norm here, far as I can tell. If anything, the opposite is very much the norm, discussions like the one we are having now are constant and most views that can be talked about are... often very touchy and personal issues get talked about.
    I think this is true if the original post is done with some tact. Tact is not a gift all of us posses in the same degree. But once people start regailing a particular person, and the style they used to bring it up, even the point the poerson was trying to make gets lost. Many people will refrain from broaching the same issue again, for fear of association with disliked member or style. I don't think that is a good thing.


    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    Picking a topic that most won't agree with you on will invite "one vs many". It's like saying that scientific community is being unfair to flat earth simply because most people don't believe in "flat earth". I disagree because I have seen the real version of what you are complaining about - we are talking outright attacks on people, the bullying, the supporters of the bullies.
    I don't spend a lot of time on forums, and this is the first one. So maybe that is true. But I have seen, the "In Real Life" version, of what I am talking about, and it fits.


    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    It's something I'm very sensitive to and I simply don't see it here. So yes, I disagree. Would you rather me stay silent, avoid commenting on everything I agree with? Should I not post my views because others have expressed similar, if not exactly the same views?
    Nope, but I am certain, that the flurry of supporters of that particular view have kept many others quite.

    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    Nope, though the style didn't sit well...
    Why? is what I am asking.

    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    Neutral, rather like your OP... And a mix. It's not a fixed dynamic.

    Yes... you are correct, and this thread shows it. People reflect the OP. People are emotional. However, threads can also be split between camps. However, it's not about a dedicated group attacking the smaller group - the groups change. Sometimes it's even, sometimes not.

    I don't see this as cultural, I see it as the normal dynamics of human interaction.
    If it is a natural part of human dynamics, It is a part of normal human dynamic I find to be wrong, and quite a bit more dangerous than a few unsavory characters. Keep in mind you were about to do the Santtu the very same thing. It is akin to me to the "loudest OP wins" in real life, or the ones with the most "social capital" unwittingly (or perhaps on purpose) controling points of view.



    Quote Originally Posted by Park View Post
    Hmm, I gues I would be fooling nobody (myself included) if I said you didn't managed to do that but that's not your fault. I'd probably still be debating heavily with you for starting up a thread on shaky ground even if my background had been different. Seriously don't worry about that part .

    Yours is the POV I understand the least, and I would like to understand it.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    Yours is the POV I understand the least, and I would like to understand it.
    Point out exactly what it is you don't understand and I'll explain it again.
    Verbal IQ Test

    SubFacor IQ score = 65
    Subscale percentile = 1

    You appear to have a very limited vocabulary and lack the ability to identify the correct responses for a variety of different questions. A deficient vocabulary can hinder you in many ways; you may struggle to find the correct words when speaking, fail to understand what others are communicating to you, or come across as inarticulate to others.

  10. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by Park View Post
    Point out exactly what it is you don't understand and I'll explain it again.
    This is how I interpreted you're crtique (please feel free to correct my interpretation of your POV)...

    "You're language was too strong for the purposes you intended."

    To which, I react, "so?"

    "You are using guilt manipulation."

    To which I react, "How?" I have some understanding of that, now. But I wasn't attempting to induce guilt.

    "You are being distracting."

    To which I react, "From what?"

    I also still feel some sort of personal disdain. I hope it is just my imagination.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

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