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  1. #31
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    Although, the first post by Santtu (who has otherwise been a rather sane poster) was combative, the righteous tone and more importantly, the number of responses seemed uncalled for. He made what I believe to be a mistake, but I believe the response he received was also mistaken.
    All right. It simply helps when I can refer back to a specific example, to help me understand where you drew your ideas from.

    There are other examples, but I am hesitant to make enemies on this forum(I have also gotten PMs to this effect, but they are after all PMs).
    I understand that as well.

    This is a slight tangent, but just to be clear, if you do have an issue that needs to be addressed, you can put a thread up in the Feedback section (especially if it regards policy of some sort).

    If it is more delicate in nature, you can also PM a mod independently about it. It's easier if more general complaints could just be posted in Feedback, for open discussion; but if there is a need for discretion, you can contact a mod directly.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  2. #32
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    As far as the types of people on this forum, you may resent the implication, but I believe them to be quite amenable to "group-think", especially in regards to forum "etiquette". I think, people on this forum, pick on people to preserve some forum "order" I have no comprehension of, and are extremely hasty to jump to conclusions regarding "trolling" or "taunting".
    As it turns out, INTPs are pretty prone to groupthink, which is interesting in itself.

    However much I do agree with you, I think you have picked up on the wrong things. BW/SW history is anything but pleasant, but entirely in the wrong direction.

    I went over to the Insipid thread that he posted, and I thought I'd quote some of the things that made him, how do you say, unsocial.
    -

    But you're an ENFJ.. YOU learn best by emulating... you dont need to think for yourself... you just have to find someone else who can think well so they can think for you..

    -

    Now I see who these stubborn and unimaginative people were who thought that they were something..!! ---They were SENSORS the reason why they were being so dull was not because they were doing this intentionally but because they couldnt help it

    -

    You want to talk about elitism? SW is an old member. This is what he posts when our first ESFJ joins;

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...le-thread.html

    Quite honestly, I hope you keep posting and you encourage discussion, such as the points you made about Santtu were important as a balance and check... however, if you think the history is about oppression, it is in particular your type and Ns in general that have been the issue, not the other way around... and on this board, the one created to avoid the dominance issues, it was SW/BW that started the anti-S stuff all over again. And not in a subtle way, either, and often at the personal level. You probably aren't aware of the multiple warnings, ect, etc.

    In short, you will defend the downtrodden, despite being a major source of problems you complain about... but will leave not because of the typism, but because of that elitism/persecution. In short, you are reacting to what is distinctly uncomfortable to your own preferences, IMO. Thats why the logic is falling apart (ie: the comments on this thread about leaving, etc), and that is why dialogue is falling apart.

    What you are seeing right now is the balancing point between shifting from an N(T) dominated board to a more balanced board. Yes, it will be uncomfortable for the majority stakeholders - NTs - but certain bad manners from those types are not going to be welcome, typism at the top of the list. If you feel that is unfair, then there is nothing I can say to it.

    (As an aside, I think this suddenly cleared up the gap I couldn't figure out on INTP group think!)

  3. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    All right. It simply helps when I can refer back to a specific example, to help me understand where you drew your ideas from.



    I understand that as well.

    This is a slight tangent, but just to be clear, if you do have an issue that needs to be addressed, you can put a thread up in the Feedback section (especially if it regards policy of some sort).

    If it is more delicate in nature, you can also PM a mod independently about it. It's easier if more general complaints could just be posted in Feedback, for open discussion; but if there is a need for discretion, you can contact a mod directly.
    I wasn't sure where to post this, but it has been a growing concern for me since almost the time I joined. Some of us are not as tactful as others. I realize, by defending BlueWing, I touched some nerve.

    But I do this type of thing In Real Life too. I really dislike when group dynamics shift to color everything a person does in a bad light, even though there may have been a couple of bad incidents by the person himself (for some reason, it is usually a male).

    I may not be that great at judging human nature, but I do know that when several people, at the same time, take a "correcting" tone with someone, it is very natural to become defensive, and take on a permanent combative tone. Whatever the implications, my reading of SolataryWalker's posts and the responses, I think that is what happened. I can certainly be wrong on this, but that is what I believe. I see a similar dynamic with Sona and Uberfuhrer. They may not be "victims" (and may even think I am taking this too far), but I don't think several people taking a "correcting" tone is helpful.

    When I perceived it happening to Santtu as well... you know the result.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  4. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    As it turns out, INTPs are pretty prone to groupthink, which is interesting in itself.

    However much I do agree with you, I think you have picked up on the wrong things. BW/SW history is anything but pleasant, but entirely in the wrong direction.

    I went over to the Insipid thread that he posted, and I thought I'd quote some of the things that made him, how do you say, unsocial.
    -

    But you're an ENFJ.. YOU learn best by emulating... you dont need to think for yourself... you just have to find someone else who can think well so they can think for you..

    -

    Now I see who these stubborn and unimaginative people were who thought that they were something..!! ---They were SENSORS the reason why they were being so dull was not because they were doing this intentionally but because they couldnt help it

    -

    You want to talk about elitism? SW is an old member. This is what he posts when our first ESFJ joins;

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...le-thread.html

    Quite honestly, I hope you keep posting and you encourage discussion, such as the points you made about Santtu were important as a balance and check... however, if you think the history is about oppression, it is in particular your type and Ns in general that have been the issue, not the other way around... and on this board, the one created to avoid the dominance issues, it was SW/BW that started the anti-S stuff all over again. And not in a subtle way, either, and often at the personal level. You probably aren't aware of the multiple warnings, ect, etc.

    In short, you will defend the downtrodden, despite being a major source of problems you complain about... but will leave not because of the typism, but because of that elitism/persecution. In short, you are reacting to what is distinctly uncomfortable to your own preferences, IMO. Thats why the logic is falling apart (ie: the comments on this thread about leaving, etc), and that is why dialogue is falling apart.

    What you are seeing right now is the balancing point between shifting from an N(T) dominated board to a more balanced board. Yes, it will be uncomfortable for the majority stakeholders - NTs - but certain bad manners from those types are not going to be welcome, typism at the top of the list. If you feel that is unfair, then there is nothing I can say to it.

    (As an aside, I think this suddenly cleared up the gap I couldn't figure out on INTP group think!)
    We are not a cult (are we?). Members can leave when they feel it uncomfortable. I am sure everyone is prone to group-think, but that does not excuse group-think in response.


    Logic can only function on our perceptions, and perhaps my perceptions are poor when it comes to BlueWing. But the thing that fed it is what I saw with regard to Sona and Uberfuhrer, and isolated occasions of similar events with others. Luckily, others didn't change the way they relate to the forum members dramatically. I saw the thread started by Santtu as beginning to degrade into a Sunttu vs. the forum thread, and I couldn't stand for it, without saying something.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  5. #35
    Senior Member Sahara's Avatar
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    Sona pretty much deserves what he asks for from me, and will continue to recieve it.
    "No one can be free of the chains that surround them"

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    I am not sure what I filled the blank with. Like I said, I have no expectations for change in this forum (I do hope, but I don't expect). I am sorry about your suicidal relatives doing whatever they did to you, but I am not trying to do the same.

    I was trying to level. I asked if I was being disruptive, and I got the answer of "no" (essentially). Do you believe this to be "disruptive"?

    If so, let me know how (I can't change the past) I would be less disruptive.
    What you'r doing now would fall into the category of *distraction*.

    You started up another thread about communication and problem solving where you describe yourself as an intellectual problem solver who dispite of everything understands the value of levelling. You started up this thread based on the (wrong?) assumption that people on this board are being abused for being different and in the OT you pulled off this stunt:

    I am seriously questioning whether I should stick around here. This forum has a culture I was unaware of, and I am not sure I like the culture.

    Can anyone enlighten me on the detailed drama of this forum?
    Since guilt tripping, threats and distraction doesn't equal intellectualizing and levelling, I'm sure you perceive the irony.
    Verbal IQ Test

    SubFacor IQ score = 65
    Subscale percentile = 1

    You appear to have a very limited vocabulary and lack the ability to identify the correct responses for a variety of different questions. A deficient vocabulary can hinder you in many ways; you may struggle to find the correct words when speaking, fail to understand what others are communicating to you, or come across as inarticulate to others.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    We are not a cult (are we?). Members can leave when they feel it uncomfortable.
    Exactly, which is why stating the obvious, in this connection, has a tendency of coming out as a threat.
    Verbal IQ Test

    SubFacor IQ score = 65
    Subscale percentile = 1

    You appear to have a very limited vocabulary and lack the ability to identify the correct responses for a variety of different questions. A deficient vocabulary can hinder you in many ways; you may struggle to find the correct words when speaking, fail to understand what others are communicating to you, or come across as inarticulate to others.

  8. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by Park View Post
    What you'r doing now would fall into the category of *distraction*.
    I am sorry you see it that way. But my intent was to have people on this forum re-asses how they correct behavior.

    Quote Originally Posted by Park View Post
    You started up another thread about communication and problem solving where you describe yourself as an intellectual problem solver who dispite of everything understands the value of levelling.
    I still believe that to be an accurate summary. I am human, and there are exceptions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Park View Post
    You started up this thread based on the (wrong?) assumption that people on this board are being abused for being different
    I hope I was wrong. But I still maintain that they approach to correction of behavior is overly-punitive, and based too heavily on a chorus of correcting rhetoric.

    Quote Originally Posted by Park View Post
    and in the OT you pulled off this stunt:

    am seriously questioning whether I should stick around here. This forum has a culture I was unaware of, and I am not sure I like the culture.

    Can anyone enlighten me on the detailed drama of this forum?

    I don't understand why you call it a "stunt". That was honestly what I was thinking. I believe the way people are "corrected" on this forum is by means of a "chorus of correcting rhetoric" (and I get a little taste myself).

    Quote Originally Posted by Park View Post
    Since guilt tripping, threats and distraction doesn't equal intellectualizing and levelling, I'm sure you perceive the irony.
    If it is guilt-tripping, threatening, or distracting, then it is an aberration. I wasn't intending to make anyone feel guilty. I found no force behind the so-called "threat" of leaving the forum (It is, just a forum, people). I also, genuinely believe I started this thread to contribute, not to distract.

    You are entitled to your opinion. But I was simply stating mine. Although, my decision to leave the forum was meant as food for thought about the culture of how people are corrected here, it was not meant as a "threat".

    I hope you believe me. But I sense some animosity from you.

    True, Park?

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  9. #39
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    We are not a cult (are we?). Members can leave when they feel it uncomfortable. I am sure everyone is prone to group-think, but that does not excuse group-think in response.
    Do you really think group think is just "group think" here? Is it groupthink when a member gets called down for attacking other members? That's what you are defending in the OP.

    Luckily, others didn't change the way they relate to the forum members dramatically. I saw the thread started by Santtu as beginning to degrade into a Sunttu vs. the forum thread, and I couldn't stand for it, without saying something.
    I admit, that thread went the wrong way. I couldn't even start to think how to respond to it when the vast vast majority of the complaints go the other way around. The dismissal was like every other thread that most people just go "WTF" to.

    (Though at some level, I did think "It's about freaking time you people get a taste of your own medicine", but then I realised it's not the same people, alas... but I think a lot of people had a similar thought.)

    As far as Sona and Uber goes, I don't bother with Sona's post so I don't know the story there, but I think Uber is smart if anti-social... perhaps attention seeking is a better definition of the problem. Behaviour like theirs will be frowned upon but I have had some great discussions with Uber and I like to think he and I both gained from it.

    There is a culture and there is some level of expectation to respect others. Sona called out a picture of a (flying) pig as offensive in an avatar as his early contribution while the vast majority of the people here tolerate to an extreme amount (perhaps too much, judging my Uber's Nazi related avatar). He didn't fit well into the culture as a result. Culture matters, yes - this board is largely open minded and tolerant and his request didn't go over well. The few I have read haven't really encouraged a change in my belief in him.

    I guess what I'm saying is that what you are picking up shouldn't be generalised to the degree that you are. There is a culture, yes. If you really think the culture is the way you describe... then I have missed it entirely... and in fact, to me, you are advocating more tolerance to those that have shown they are distinctly intolerant and will be disruptive. In the vast majority of the cases, new members are welcomed with open arms... you've picked up three that have caused serious issues in the past and have generalised three distinct, but not even serious, cases to the whole board, culture and so forth... without, even as you say, an understanding of the history.

    It's not 'culture' that is defending this, if I could even be considered part of the culture here. It just doesn't make sense to me.

  10. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    Do you really think group think is just "group think" here? Is it groupthink when a member gets called down for attacking other members? That's what you are defending in the OP.
    It is group-think when the calling-down procedure turns into a chorus.


    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    Let me try and clarify my points, since I seem to have been overly emotional, when I first posted.

    These are the points I am raising (and I realize people who participated may feel defensive about it).

    1) When multiple people try to "correct" someone at the same time without giving adequate explanation of why their behavior is wrong(only "adequate" if the explanation is understood by the target individual) the results are often counter-productive, and can degrade into the person feeling like it is the individual vs. the group (entrenching the behavior). There are better ways to correct behavior.

    2) I see this style of "one vs. many" as being the norm on this forum (I could even point to this thread as an example, but pick any thread where an individual has a controversial opinion). I think this style is counter-productive in getting individuals to change behavior or opinion. Also, I think it, also unduly sanitizes the forum content. Do you think I was ill-mannered to post the first post in this thread (honestly)? If so, do you think all the responses I got were well-mannered? I personally think this is just a heated discussion. I think often, we gang-up on on ill-mannered post in a thread (often with ill-mannered responses) and do not do anything about ill-mannered responses in the "gang". This is the norm, pick a controversial post where this pattern isn't followed. This is the culture I am talking about.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

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