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View Poll Results: Which temperament grouping do you prefer?

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  • Stick with the classic NT/NF. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

    9 34.62%
  • I like NJ/NP better. Let's try it!

    17 65.38%
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  1. #21
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mortabunt View Post
    ! I cannot dissuade you. I shall let you make your case. Argueing with you is like .


    Don't you just love that about me?

    Remember, people, this is what arguing with a determined (and rather bored) NJ is often like.

  2. #22
    On a mission Usehername's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mortabunt View Post
    Here's one last area that I notice the diference in between all NT's and all NF's. NF's always want to beleive the best of people. They refuse to see the bad in people, or when they are forced to admit it, they sey something like, a little, or some issues. NT's will often tell things brutally directly, and are often extremely skeptical or pessimistic. For example: an NF and an NT dislike a salad. The NF says something like, "this salad is lacking or has to much of something." The NT says something like "I dislike this salad, or this salad sucks." It's that kind of diplomacy versus directness that divides the N's. I've had to learn to soften my language so that I don't offend people without really intending too. Another example: You tell an ENFP to go to hell and they probably will cry. If you tell an INTP the same thing, they'll ignore you or tell you to go there yourself, or come up with a witty insult right back at you. Also, ENFP's are much more threatened by conflict than INTP's. Most INTP's will face conflict, yet most ENFP's will do anything to avoid it.
    You seem really young. Probably your information is, IMO, incorrect simply because the people you are observing are also young, and thus have not developed their secondary/tertiary functions yet?

    Also, as a friendly piece of unsolicited advice, you should learn that absolutism is going to get your otherwise thoughtful ideas disregarded.
    *You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body.
    *Faith is the art of holding on to things your reason once accepted, despite your changing moods.
    C.S. Lewis

  3. #23
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Usehername View Post
    You seem really young. Probably your information is, IMO, incorrect simply because the people you are observing are also young, and thus have not developed their secondary/tertiary functions yet?

    Also, as a friendly piece of unsolicited advice, you should learn that absolutism is going to get your otherwise thoughtful ideas disregarded.
    +1

    Listen to her advice. It's more helpful than what I said, because I was just in a really sarcastic, argumentative mood. If I'd been in a more sympathetic or helpful mood, I might have said something similar.

  4. #24
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Usehername View Post
    With mature NFs, those that have developed adequate use of their T function, I find NFJs to be easier to talk with than NTPs. I have less communication problems. But maybe this is from me growing up in an entirely F household.
    Could be.

    Frankly, I grew up in an emotional crazy ward with both T's and F's and it really skewed things for me for years. So who knows? i can't make sense of it sometimes.

    NFPs are fun, though (we Ne-ping everywhere together), and I like NFJs from the serious thoughtful conversations we can have together.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  5. #25
    Revelation Lauren Ashley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mortabunt View Post
    Here's one last area that I notice the diference in between all NT's and all NF's. NF's always want to beleive the best of people. They refuse to see the bad in people, or when they are forced to admit it, they sey something like, a little, or some issues. NT's will often tell things brutally directly, and are often extremely skeptical or pessimistic.
    Aha. Could this be why others, including NTs, think that I am mistyped and actually an NT? Because I swing from intense pessimism to mild optimism, and am often blunt. I've been in the most vicious arguments online and offline, because I'm inclined to give people back whatever they give me (and then some). I'm currently working on my diplomacy, though

    Oh yeah, about the OP -- either way is fine to me; both have pros and cons.

  6. #26
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lauren Ashley View Post
    Oh yeah, about the OP -- either way is fine to me; both have pros and cons.
    Yes, that's true. I just want to put the idea out there to get people thinking in more sophisticated terms than just lumping all NFs and NTs together and treating them as a single group for all intents and purposes.

    There might be a few who just need an invitation to look at it from a different perspective to get their minds started.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Hmm...

    I'm just finding this whole NT language and NF language idea strange, actually. I've found that I have the best communication with other INJs, followed by ENPs. Then in third place are ENFJ and INTP. I don't usually understand INFPs better than any of the other remaining types, honestly. That's just the typical case, though... sometimes I even find an ISFJ that speaks the same language.

    I wonder if it seems that way more to you and Tallulah because you're F and T dominant respectively? Perhaps the reason temperament is so widely accepted is because INPs are the most common of Ns, and it works especially well for them?
    I am Fi dominant, but my Ni and Ne run almost neck and neck, so I'm also very N. You see, there in lies the problem. Another INFP might be very I and very P, but more borderline N, for example. That's what makes all of this so very complicated.

    I think that you, for example, are probably a borderline T because of the way you communicate even though you identify as F. Not all Ts are calm, rational beings, though I guess that's the stereotype.

    I will say that I relate very strongly to other NPs, including NTPs, because I think we have a more "big picture" world view. I think NPs might be better at relating an abstract concept about one culture, for example, very easily to another culture. I think NPs make these sorts of connections all of the time, which is why Ps are stereotyped as being "open minded." I don't think it's necessarily that all Ps are open minded, because we certainly can have our own little stubbornly tenacious views, but we can see different sides of the same angle and apply a broad concept very quickly to something that seems different or unrelated, even if it's something we don't personally agree with.

    Still, I also agree with Jennifer that NFs are much more likely to interpret unintentional meaning into words and react emotionally to things that NTs will say informatively or just off-handedly. I have found, though, that I'm more frequently upset by NTJs than NTPs.

    It's all very complicated.

  8. #28
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    I am Fi dominant, but my Ni and Ne run almost neck and neck, so I'm also very N. You see, there in lies the problem. Another INFP might be very I and very P, but more borderline N, for example. That's what makes all of this so very complicated.
    INPs may seem very N to themselves, but quite honestly... you only seem to have average or normal N to me. The point is, Fi filters your perceptions of N to some degree, more than it would if you were, say, an ENFP. I also sense no Ni in you, if you'll forgive my saying so. Indeed, it is very complicated... and you don't seem to be interpreting it correctly here.
    Still, I also agree with Jennifer that NFs are much more likely to interpret unintentional meaning into words and react emotionally to things that NTs will say informatively or just off-handedly. I have found, though, that I'm more frequently upset by NTJs than NTPs.

    It's all very complicated.
    The thing is, that relationship (at least for NTs) is asymmetric. NTPs feel as if it takes them less energy to talk to NTJs... but most of the NTJs I talk to wouldn't agree that it takes them less energy to talk to NTPs, in fact I often hear the opposite. NTPs probably don't know how sensitive NTJs can actually be. I've actually had a few of them remain composed in a debate with an NTP, not showing any signs of distress... and then they would come to me later complaining about how horrible and pointless, cold, irrational, and painful the NTP's way of thinking was, and how much all that grated on their nerves. Sometimes they complain about it for days afterwards. I usually end up trying to explain what the NTP meant and their perspective in order to calm them down a bit, while sympathizing with their goals and how the NTP just didn't understand what the aim was.

    Let's just say I've seen a lot more NTJs getting hurt by NTPs than the other way around. Especially INTPs and INTJs.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    INPs may seem very N to themselves, but quite honestly... you only seem to have average or normal N to me. The point is, Fi filters your perceptions of N to some degree, more than it would if you were, say, an ENFP. I also sense no Ni in you, if you'll forgive my saying so. Indeed, it is very complicated... and you don't seem to be interpreting it correctly here.
    In my function tests, which I have taken several of, I am very N. My strongest elements are Fi, Ne, and Ni.

    You sense no Ni in me? You don't even know me! I must use Ni quite frequently to score so high on it, not to mention that on some tests I always test as INFJ, not INFP, and it's because of the strength of my Ni.

    I'm quite certain that Ni might have something to do with why my life in general has been so self-actualized (I envision things, and I do them, unlike some people I know), and also why literature is a strength of mine.

    The thing is, that relationship (at least for NTs) is asymmetric. NTPs feel as if it takes them less energy to talk to NTJs... but most of the NTJs I talk to wouldn't agree that it takes them less energy to talk to NTPs, in fact I often hear the opposite. NTPs probably don't know how sensitive NTJs can actually be. I've actually had a few of them remain composed in a debate with an NTP, not showing any signs of distress... and then they would come to me later complaining about how horrible and pointless, cold, irrational, and painful the NTP's way of thinking was, and how much all that grated on their nerves. Sometimes they complain about it for days afterwards. I usually end up trying to explain what the NTP meant and their perspective in order to calm them down a bit, while sympathizing with their goals and how the NTP just didn't understand what the aim was.

    Let's just say I've seen a lot more NTJs getting hurt by NTPs than the other way around. Especially INTPs and INTJs.
    I was talking about my experience in terms of being an NP relating to NJs.

    In my experience, certain NTJs can be quite ruthless and nasty in their debates with others.

  10. #30
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    You sense no Ni in me? You don't even know me! I must use Ni quite frequently to score so high on it, not to mention that on some tests I always test as INFJ, not INFP, and it's because of the strength of my Ni.

    I'm quite certain that Ni might have something to do with why my life in general has been so self-actualized (I envision things, and I do them, unlike some people I know), and also why literature is a strength of mine.
    Oh, you mean THAT kind of Ni. I DO sense that kind of Ni in you. But that kind of Ni is the kind I think many people end up developing at some point in their life. I would actually score rather low on the kind you're talking about, though I'm seeking to develop it.

    Self-actualization and envisioning things is Ni-ish, but Ni itself isn't really about that. It just kind of uses the idea of those things in other processes. The Ni user may not even be very self-actualized, though they have all the tools they need to become that way if they can manage to get themselves centered, which ironically is a more difficult state for them to reach and maintain than it is for many other types. It's hard to explain.

    I would also say that Ni types find it the easiest to reach a self-actualized state or perspective, but they're also the most likely to regress afterwards into a caricature of that state relative to their previous one... almost like they overshot it.


    In my experience, certain NTJs can be quite ruthless and nasty in their debates with others.
    That's true, also. But you should remember... just because they can dish it out, doesn't mean they can take it. There really are very sensitive people who can go around being ruthless and nasty to others. In fact, immature IxTJs (and more rarely unhealthy IxFPs) often do just that.

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