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  1. #21
    now! in shell form INA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmandahalf View Post
    The two aren't mutually exclusive, but it leads to over-generalized resentment on each side. NTs see SJs as sticks in the mud, holding back progress, and SJs see NTs as lazy, undisciplined, and flying by the seat of their pants. It doesn't have to be this way, of course.
    Yup. I appreciate SJs for the reason that they serve different purposes and take care of the things I really don't give a hoot about doing, though I appreciate it being done.
    Maybe this rosy view is because I don't have one around in my hair and being critical much.
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  2. #22
    Senior Member Saslou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmandahalf View Post
    I personally have a harder time relating to SJs than Ns, especially, but this is largely because I have an ISTJ mother, so all of the normal conflict between parent and child was totally exacerbated with us. She'd insist I do things the "right" way, I'd question what makes it better than another system, she'd accuse me of laziness, etc. I think the core prob is that the things which NTs most value about themselves- their ability to question, to probe, to innovate- are viewed somewhat suspiciously by SJs in particular. And vice versa. SJs tend to value their own hard work, dedication, etc. The two aren't mutually exclusive, but it leads to over-generalized resentment on each side. NTs see SJs as sticks in the mud, holding back progress, and SJs see NTs as lazy, undisciplined, and flying by the seat of their pants. It doesn't have to be this way, of course.
    Funny that as i have never really pushed (obviously some things i have)anything on my children. I have given them space to grow. From their types though and profiles i have been able to better understand them.
    My mum (ESxP) can not get her head around my son (ENTP) and the shit she gives me for it. Jeez. I just accept my boys for their differences. I would never want to control their personalities.
    I will be honest though .. I don't totally trust INTx's .. i can not put my finger on it just yet and i don't mind being questioned and probed. Hopefully my conclusions will go one way or another in time.
    ENTx's though .. love them.
    “I made you take time to look at what I saw and when you took time to really notice my flower, you hung all your associations with flowers on my flower and you write about my flower as if I think and see what you think and see—and I don't.”
    ― Georgia O'Keeffe

  3. #23
    Shaman BlackCat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluemonday View Post
    I think we mostly just don't interact much.
    If someone can point the finger at something and pick fun at it without any resistance, then yeah things can spiral out of control (by this I mean with the lack of SJs). This being because no one can say "bullshit" for the most part, and if someone does call "bullshit" on a stereotype then the person will say "oh but you're an exception". NTs and SJs imo do need to just interact with each other more. That would probably fix the imaginary conflict at hand here.

    Interaction fixes most things like this... Like opposite types hanging around each other and realizing they aren't so bad. Or maybe someone who's say racist against African Americans due to some sort of "character flaw" that they see in them hangs around a few African Americans and realizes that they don't have said flaws.
    () 9w8-3w4-7w6 tritype.

    sCueI (primary Inquisition)

  4. #24
    Senior Member Saslou's Avatar
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    ^ Very good point.
    “I made you take time to look at what I saw and when you took time to really notice my flower, you hung all your associations with flowers on my flower and you write about my flower as if I think and see what you think and see—and I don't.”
    ― Georgia O'Keeffe

  5. #25
    now! in shell form INA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackCat View Post
    Interaction fixes most things like this... Like opposite types hanging around each other and realizing they aren't so bad. Or maybe someone who's say racist against African Americans due to some sort of "character flaw" that they see in them hangs around a few African Americans and realizes that they don't have said flaws.
    Uh not really. I can think of a couple SJs IRL who I like and appreciate precisely because we don't interact all that much. Joint efforts don't get to be the breeding grounds of resentment. More interaction could go either way.
    hoarding time and space
    A single event can awaken within us a stranger totally unknown to us. To live is to be slowly born.
    — Antoine de Saint-Exupery

  6. #26
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by saslou View Post
    I will be honest though .. I don't totally trust INTx's .. i can not put my finger on it just yet and i don't mind being questioned and probed.
    Are they too private about what they feel/think to be totally trusted?

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluemonday View Post
    Ahhh. It's not the same when you have to explain it.

    I'm going to take your question seriously, (since you don't want me to) and just say that SJ values are mostly anathema to many NTPs, at least. We approach things in completely different ways, with very different priorities, and frequently have difficulty communicating with each other, which can and does lead to conflict. Often around issues of control. SJs like to take it, NTs like their autonomy. I can appreciate individual SJs, whilst not caring for many of their traits. I find it works both ways, but SJs don't bump up against us as much as we do against them.

    EDIT. Actually, I think it's an NP, not necessarily NT thing. I've heard NFPs express similar sentiments, they just tend to be more polite about it.
    There's an INFJ on here who has a pretty serious problem with SJs. I don't think it's just an NFP thing.

    Besides, I like some SJs. Probably ISFJs the most. I think being traumatized by a couple of ESTJs in childhood is enough to send any INFP whining to the forums. But seriously, I know they aren't all bad. I love some SJs - individual ones, that is, of course.

  8. #28
    Senior Member Saslou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    Are they too private about what they feel/think to be totally trusted?
    Possibly.

    At the end of the day though i am not going to lose any sleep over it. Each to their own.

    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    There's an INFJ on here who has a pretty serious problem with SJs. I don't think it's just an NFP thing.
    That can piss me right off. If someone has a problem, they don't need to disguise it. They just need to put it into perspective and get over it.

    If only things were that simple.
    “I made you take time to look at what I saw and when you took time to really notice my flower, you hung all your associations with flowers on my flower and you write about my flower as if I think and see what you think and see—and I don't.”
    ― Georgia O'Keeffe

  9. #29
    Shaman BlackCat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by InaF3157 View Post
    Uh not really. I can think of a couple SJs IRL who I like and appreciate precisely because we don't interact all that much. Joint efforts don't get to be the breeding grounds of resentment. More interaction could go either way.
    I meant it would fix the "bad stereotype" in that you would be interacting with someone who is a good example of that sort of person. Of course there will be people that you won't get along with of all types and temperaments, but a good example of that will realize that it's not universal, and that someone being "bad" is a character trait and not a type trait.
    () 9w8-3w4-7w6 tritype.

    sCueI (primary Inquisition)

  10. #30
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by saslou View Post
    .. I don't totally trust INTx's ..

    Quote Originally Posted by BlackCat View Post
    If someone can point the finger at something and pick fun at it without any resistance, then yeah things can spiral out of control (by this I mean with the lack of SJs). This being because no one can say "bullshit" for the most part, and if someone does call "bullshit" on a stereotype then the person will say "oh but you're an exception". NTs and SJs imo do need to just interact with each other more. That would probably fix the imaginary conflict at hand here.
    I'm not sure what you are talking about. First of all, you can't fix an imaginary conflict.
    Secondly, we aren't dealing in stereotypes, more like archetypes. Anyone with a problem with typing should probably not hang around TYPOLOGY CENTRAL!
    Interaction fixes most things like this... Like opposite types hanging around each other and realizing they aren't so bad.
    Quote Originally Posted by InaF3157 View Post
    Uh not really. I can think of a couple SJs IRL who I like and appreciate precisely because we don't interact all that much. Joint efforts don't get to be the breeding grounds of resentment. More interaction could go either way.
    +1
    More interaction = more friction, IME.

    (maybe that's just 'cos I'm an asshole though)
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