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  1. #91
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Economica View Post
    I am open to the possibility that you have not communicated privately regarding my type; however, neither one of you is doing a good job of being convincing. Natrushka posted for hours earlier today but waited until a while after you had come online to issue her denial; you yourself are being colder now than I believe you would be (insulted or not) if there was no truth to my accusation. Considering that she has several good reasons not to enjoy my posts on this board and that I have placed you between a rock (forsaking your friend) and a hard place (lying) if there is truth to my accusation, I am not yet convinced that I should ditch my iNtuitive shot in favor of taking your denials at face value.
    Oh good grief.

    Hell is particular xxTJs.

    No, I simply figured you knew me well enough to know whether I would purposefully lie about such things in a public forum. <eye roll>

    Whatever.

    Oh, and given the discrepancy between your beliefs regarding my type, I don't buy that it is actually athenian200 who is your Iago.
    Of course not. It's called a joke.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  2. #92
    Senior Member Langrenus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Economica View Post
    I am open to the possibility that you have not communicated privately regarding my type; however, neither one of you is doing a good job of being convincing. Natrushka posted for hours earlier today but waited until a while after you had come online to issue her denial; you yourself are being colder now than I believe you would be (insulted or not) if there was no truth to my accusation. Considering that she has several good reasons not to enjoy my posts on this board and that I have placed you between a rock (forsaking your friend) and a hard place (lying) if there is truth to my accusation, I am not yet convinced that I should ditch my iNtuitive shot in favor of taking your denials at face value
    Sorry, but this is taking melodrama to extremes; in honesty, it doesn't reflect well on your ability to rationally consider the views of others that you feel forced to resort to accusing others of orchestrating a witch-hunt when your Intuition is challenged.
    January has April's showers
    And 2 and 2 always makes a 5

  3. #93
    only bites when provoked
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    Quote Originally Posted by Usehername View Post
    I don't maintain "conflicting internal religious views"; I have never claimed to have it all figured out, but being an INTJ does not make one allergic to Christianity. C. S. Lewis and Real Live Preacher are both famous examples.
    You missed it all, yet again. You're hopeless.

    I think you're forgetting to expand your pool of INTJs into those who tremendously value relationships and people (in theory; sometimes people are just plain patience-testing creatures ). I'd assume female INTJs would generally value these more than males. And don't forget that I'm not an extreme introvert, and my family consists of 5 xxFxs and me. Environment and genes; it's always an interaction!)
    I've met two female INTJs (dated one of them), and they were both rather misanthropic. In fact, I'd go as far as saying they value relationships and people less than male INTJs, which is pretty hard to do. They both ripped on other people perpetually, for instance. My family is the same size: half extroverts, half introverts, 3 NTs, 2 or 3 SJs, and possibly an SP. None as introverted as I am...

    But an INTJ who cares about others, would care that their needs are being met, would care that they're feeling valued, validated, etc. and I would venture to guess that Economica and I likely just have consciously decided to value this, and possibly she has, like I have, been constantly exposed to xxFxs and has also learned this second language fluently.
    Oh, I care about others, merely selective about who I care about the most, and discussion/disagreement has nothing to do with how much I care. In fact, if I bother disagreeing with you or your standpoint, you or that standpoint hold some value in my mind.

    I'm a pretty soft/caring INTJ, or so at least one INFJ that talks to me has claimed. In fact, she wasn't entirely sure I was an INTJ for quite a while (possibly an INFP or INFJ) because I am too friendly for my type, in spite of my distinctly-expressed preferences.

    People don't get exceptions from scrutiny for being people or even being cared about. If you are an INTJ, you don't respect me one iota, because you don't even bother to read what I write. Then again, you could have reading comprehension problems unrelated to your personalty; as is true with many things via this medium, it's hard to say.
    I 100%, N 88%, T 88%, J 75%

    Disclaimer: The above is my opinion and mine alone, it does not mean I cannot change my mind, nor does it guarantee that my comments are related to any deep-seated convictions. Take everything I say with a whole snowplow worth of salt and call me in the morning, if you can.

  4. #94
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by athenian200 View Post
    Unbelievable overreactions. No wonder people are afraid to question other people's types, the practice is almost viewed as pejorative, and questioning someone's reasoning or trying to account for potential bias is viewed as a personal attack. Sigh, let's do ourselves a favor and bury this. I'm sorry I ever brought it up. Wow.
    You are one of the few that will talk about type on the grounded level - you aren't prone to this sort of type casting. You don't have it because it all starts with self-identification.

    Heh, let that be a lesson to your optimisim and open minded-ness!

    Anyway, back to your regularily scheduled self-selection bias.

  5. #95
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolf View Post
    You missed it all, yet again. You're hopeless.


    I've met two female INTJs (dated one of them), and they were both rather misanthropic. In fact, I'd go as far as saying they value relationships and people less than male INTJs, which is pretty hard to do. They both ripped on other people perpetually, for instance. My family is the same size: half extroverts, half introverts, 3 NTs, 2 or 3 SJs, and possibly an SP. None as introverted as I am...


    Oh, I care about others, merely selective about who I care about the most, and discussion/disagreement has nothing to do with how much I care. In fact, if I bother disagreeing with you or your standpoint, you or that standpoint hold some value in my mind.

    I'm a pretty soft/caring INTJ, or so at least one INFJ that talks to me has claimed. In fact, she wasn't entirely sure I was an INTJ for quite a while (possibly an INFP or INFJ) because I am too friendly for my type, in spite of my distinctly-expressed preferences.

    People don't get exceptions from scrutiny for being people or even being cared about. If you are an INTJ, you don't respect me one iota, because you don't even bother to read what I write. Then again, you could have reading comprehension problems unrelated to your personalty; as is true with many things via this medium, it's hard to say.
    Wolf, these are unfair statements to make. You're basing your assessment on who can be an INTJ on two other misanthropic INTJs and yourself?! That doesn't even make sense.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
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  6. #96
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    Wolf, these are unfair statements to make. You're basing your assessment on who can be an INTJ on two other misanthropic INTJs and yourself?! That doesn't even make sense.
    Agreed. I wrote this earlier today in response to a very different topic, but the principle applies here as well:

    This thread is another example (among many, here and elsewhere, practically everywhere in fact) of why it's unwise to extrapolate your own experience or that of the small sample of people you personally know onto the population at large. Your friends and acquaintances are a biased sample, if for no other reason than that they all know you.
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
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  7. #97
    only bites when provoked
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    Wolf, these are unfair statements to make. You're basing your assessment on who can be an INTJ on two other misanthropic INTJs and yourself?! That doesn't even make sense.
    You treat it as if that's not the norm.
    I 100%, N 88%, T 88%, J 75%

    Disclaimer: The above is my opinion and mine alone, it does not mean I cannot change my mind, nor does it guarantee that my comments are related to any deep-seated convictions. Take everything I say with a whole snowplow worth of salt and call me in the morning, if you can.

  8. #98
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolf View Post
    You treat it as if that's not the norm.
    What's the norm? That INTJs are misanthropic by nature?

    I think early in life an INTJ can easily be so single-minded as to ride roughshod over people and (especially) see the dissenters as obstacles to be overcome. Or take it even more personally and see the challengers as a personal slight. (I've witnessed that.)

    But I've also seen older INTJs who have done complete turnarounds. They are not completely flipped -- they still go through their misanthropic phases, usually in regards to opponents they consider to be "stupid" -- but they become very compassionate and understanding about those under their care or to whom they have responsibilities. I've seen them actually exude compassion for people, in the right contexts.

    It's just funny. Type seems simple on the surface but is also more complex than people acknowledge.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  9. #99
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    What's the norm? That INTJs are misanthropic by nature?

    I think early in life an INTJ can easily be so single-minded as to ride roughshod over people and (especially) see the dissenters as obstacles to be overcome. Or take it even more personally and see the challengers as a personal slight. (I've witnessed that.)

    But I've also seen older INTJs who have done complete turnarounds. They are not completely flipped -- they still go through their misanthropic phases, usually in regards to opponents they consider to be "stupid" -- but they become very compassionate and understanding about those under their care or to whom they have responsibilities. I've seen them actually exude compassion for people, in the right contexts.

    It's just funny. Type seems simple on the surface but is also more complex than people acknowledge.
    You know what just occurred to me? This whole MBTI thing should stereotypically (I think) appeal more to Sensors than Intuitives. After all, you have these prepackaged types, that have a stable set of behaviors that you can almost always count on to be correct. And yet sensors, when they are told about this, rebel much more so than intuitives do. I wonder why this occurs? This should be the easiest thing in the world to use!
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  10. #100
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    You know what just occurred to me? This whole MBTI thing should stereotypically (I think) appeal more to Sensors than Intuitives. After all, you have these prepackaged types, that have a stable set of behaviors that you can almost always count on to be correct. And yet sensors, when they are told about this, rebel much more so than intuitives do. I wonder why this occurs? This should be the easiest thing in the world to use!
    Ahem, I'm not sure if you are aware of the irony behind this statement. It's the hardest thing on the planet to use for Ss because it sucks at being right. Just look at this thread? In order for a S to use MBTI, they have to interpret actions in such an intuitive way - the straight linear answer to observation would never end up as a type construct.

    Ss aren't about packages - that's a J trait... to classify and all that. Ss are based in seeing the world "the way it is". Ss will actively reject anything that doesn't fit "reality". They will refine their views based on what is demonstrated, on what is... They don't fit the theory to their world - the world is their theory. It is the Ns that will hold their worldview because they are "adept" enough to see and manipulate the theory enough to see it applied, even if it shouldn't be, based on their own theory. The theory is the reality; the world is secondary.

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