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  1. #51
    Senior Member Langrenus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon67 View Post
    I would certainly not claim that guns were on average used for moral ends, but the invalidity of that claim does not imply that its opposite is true. Guns are used to attack, and used to defend; guns are used for deadly purposes, and guns are used for recreational purposes. Guns are carried by gangbangers who blight neighborhoods and by police officers who defend those same neighborhoods. The overwhelming majority of guns are made not for use, but for resale. I myself would not hazard a guess as to where on the cosmic moral scale the preponderance of firearms fall.
    Of course, you could argue that the police only need to be armed because the criminals are...or that criminals arm themselves because of the perceived risk of being shot by the police.

    This continues to be the argument deployed whenever people suggest that the British police arm themselves. Interestingly the majority of serving officers favour the status quo (i.e. carrying nothing more than C.S. spray).
    January has April's showers
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  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Langrenus View Post
    Of course, you could argue that the police only need to be armed because the criminals are...or that criminals arm themselves because of the perceived risk of being shot by the police.

    This continues to be the argument deployed whenever people suggest that the British police arm themselves. Interestingly the majority of serving officers favour the status quo (i.e. carrying nothing more than C.S. spray).
    True, but a non sequitur with regard to the issue at hand, which is whether on average more guns are used for moral or immoral purposes.

  3. #53
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    Let's say I shoot someone who annoys me, wouldn't that be moral? After all, I didn't shoot an innocent bystander.

  4. #54
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Hmm, after writing a response to all of this, I'm trying to decide if it is worth posting. I've decided not to, since it would be rude for me to post then not answer further and I don't intend to carry it further.

    The reaction to what I said is completely out of context of what I was attempting to convey - the iconic reaction inherent in both photos will differ along two lines - the degree to which the emotional reaction is triggered by each abstraction of the picture, but in the case of Nazism, also the degree on which the icon represents certain acts to that individual as well as the depth of the emotional reaction to the different acts. The level of offense is a triggered reaction based upon those two pre-conditioned views.

    I am now only rejecting the association of guilt to objects. I contend that objects do not have inherent morality and the association of morality, especially on such a side scale, is erroneous.

    The loaded associations make that discussion impossible to have here, so I'll concede and back out now.

  5. #55
    Senior Member Langrenus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon67 View Post
    True, but a non sequitur with regard to the issue at hand, which is whether on average more guns are used for moral or immoral purposes.
    Perhaps because it's a fundamentally unanswerable question

    But a fair point, I must stop doing it.
    January has April's showers
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  6. #56
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    I consider Hitler's ideas and many of his actions far more offensive than a created image of a barely clad person, but in this particular context, we censor obscenity but not ideas. So while what Hitler stands for is offensive, images of him are only censored if they are also obscene. I think obscenity in this context would be full-frontal nudity, maybe a totally bare bottom, or depictions of actual sex acts, that kind of thing.

    Personally, I would be . . . I guess offended is the right word, by obscenity as described above as well as graphic depictions of violent acts and/or gore. Not every time, mind you, it would depend on the particular image. I realize that my standards and the standards of the forum are influenced by the Puritans of yore, but that's just kinda how it works out.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  7. #57
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    The Puritans always get so misunderstood. They were actually very earthy people when it came to sex, they just felt that sex had its place and that place was in marriage (with a blind eye to the occasional venture over the bundling board.)

  8. #58
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    The Puritans always get so misunderstood. They were actually very earthy people when it came to sex, they just felt that sex had its place and that place was in marriage (with a blind eye to the occasional venture over the bundling board.)
    I don't think of Puritans as being anti-sex, but I do think of them being anti-public nudity and fornication. Their ideas about sex are probably pretty close to my own, except I don't think the government should have control over what consenting adults do in private.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    I don't think of Puritans as being anti-sex, but I do think of them being anti-public nudity and fornication. Their ideas about sex are probably pretty close to my own, except I don't think the government should have control over what consenting adults do in private.

    I agree with you about this, but mostly because I think it keeps sex more special and sacred to keep it in its place in private. When you have spread it all over town, what is left to be special about showing it to someone special to you?

  10. #60
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    I am now only rejecting the association of guilt to objects. I contend that objects do not have inherent morality and the association of morality, especially on such a side scale, is erroneous.
    That I'll buy. Inanimate objects cannot be inherently moral or immoral, but are extensions of the purpose of their owners. In other words, they can only be as "moral" or "immoral" as the people who wield them.

    This is as true of a factory as it is of a revolver.

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