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  1. #41
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uberfuhrer View Post
    Okay, people, how can a government be criminal? They're the ones who determine the crimes!
    I was formulating a detailed answer based on absolutist ethics, but decided it would be lost on you. I elected to go with Plan B, which is the following response:

    Only until they are utterly defeated in war. When that happens, the victor determines the crimes.

    I thought the utilitarian approach might be more significant to your perspective.

  2. #42
    The elder Holmes Mycroft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by athenian200 View Post
    Second of all, I can't believe that some people are more offended by Hitler than by... that half-dressed person he placed up there.
    You find some skin more offensive than Nazism? Man, you must be American. (If not, I will still go ahead and have an honorary deputy-American badge made up for you.)
    Dost thou love Life? Then do not squander Time; for that's the Stuff Life is made of.

    -- Benjamin Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanack, June 1746 --

  3. #43
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    An Apologia of a Canadian.
    Beautiful.
    Quote Originally Posted by oberon67 View Post
    No, but creating a technologically advanced, fully industrialized, clinically efficient society with a criminal ideology as its reason for existing is not a step forward.
    I think you both misunderstand me. I am saying I can understand the difference between the two reactions to the different avatars. Both are iconic reactions, one to nazism and one to objectification of women. Both are instilled, emotionally, and the degree of which we react to them is not based on rational scope. And yes, while Nazi party was responsible for one of the worst atrocities in history, they were able to launch and threaten nearly all of Europe on their own after nearly being bankrupted mere decades before. That isn't a moral judgment - it's a statement of fact, as is the economic conditions in Germany after WWII. The moral judgment need not be lessened simply because of that, unless you wish to see it that way.

  4. #44
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    ...And yes, while Nazi party was responsible for one of the worst atrocities in history, they were able to launch and threaten nearly all of Europe on their own after nearly being bankrupted mere decades before. That isn't a moral judgment - it's a statement of fact, as is the economic conditions in Germany after WWII. The moral judgment need not be lessened simply because of that, unless you wish to see it that way.
    Well, that's certainly true, in the same sense that flying a couple of passenger jets into the Twin Towers was a spectacular achievement, a really expert piece of tactical planning and execution.

  5. #45
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon67 View Post
    Well, that's certainly true, in the same sense that flying a couple of passenger jets into the Twin Towers was a spectacular achievement, a really expert piece of tactical planning and execution.
    You are equating two seperate things - in this case, you are talking about the immoral act on its own and talking about it, whereas in Nazi Germany, the achievements were not about the acts themselves (the creation of highways, renewal of factories, end of hyper inflation, rebuilding of factories and such). There was nothing particularily significant about what the terrorists did, outside of the ramifications of their act.

  6. #46
    Oberon
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    Ezra Pound got into a fair amount of hot water in later life because he had admired the fascists of Italy for their ability to make the trains run on time...an achievement unheard-of in that country before or since. The subsequent criticism of Pound was driven primarily by cock-waving post-war jingoism, and was therefore illegitimate.

    A more intelligent critique of Pound's attitude may have been to say "Making the trains run on time is evil, if the trains run to Dachau."

    To draw the parallel in Germany, the creation of highways, the end of hyperinflation, and the rebuilding of factories are not positive things if they serve a fascist dicatorship. Personally I prefer my fascist dictatorships to have poorly-built roads, obsolete factories, hyperinflationary economies, and so on. It helps to prevent them from spreading their evil nonsense around.

  7. #47
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon67 View Post
    To draw the parallel in Germany, the creation of highways, the end of hyperinflation, and the rebuilding of factories are not positive things if they serve a fascist dicatorship. Personally I prefer my fascist dictatorships to have poorly-built roads, obsolete factories, hyperinflationary economies, and so on. It helps to prevent them from spreading their evil nonsense around.
    The accomplishment still stands and can be looked at on it's own merit. It is just as unlikely that when you drive on your interstate, you question its moral value as it supports the factories building the bullets being shot in Iraq. At the super market, you do not question that the rail system that transports your food is also used to transports the engines that go into the planes and tanks stationed in the Middle East.

    These things serve purposes, and the purposes can be both good or bad. Transporting food, giving jobs and hope... those are not bad purposes. That's what they were built for in Germany and in every other country. The only moral duty is to see that they are not used for other purposes. Fascism is a temporary state, just as all forms of government are.

    You are a collector of guns, no? Do you admire their workmanship and history? Guns are not, on average, used for very moral ends. Is your support and interest moral?

  8. #48
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    It's a strange thing how liberalism looks at slaughtering as more heinous than sexuality, and yet many liberals also think rape is worse than murder. Yet more irony.

  9. #49
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    These things serve purposes, and the purposes can be both good or bad. Transporting food, giving jobs and hope... those are not bad purposes. That's what they were built for in Germany and in every other country. The only moral duty is to see that they are not used for other purposes. Fascism is a temporary state, just as all forms of government are.
    That's a reasonable point, but it was the point of view of the Nazi state that every road, every factory, and in fact every individual was first and foremost in service to the state, and that other considerations were secondary at best. Ideologically it was the purpose of the Nazi party to abolish the concept of the "private German citizen." What I have been trying to say is that while you may be right that there were positives that accrued from the Nazi revitalization of Germany, the salient point of that revitalization at the time...by the avowed intent of its leaders...was that it was a Nazi revitalization, and to that degree it was wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    You are a collector of guns, no? Do you admire their workmanship and history? Guns are not, on average, used for very moral ends. Is your support and interest moral?
    Hmmm. An interesting question. Before I answer, let me address a supposition in your question that may be unfounded: the claim that guns are not, "on average," used for very moral ends.

    I would certainly not claim that guns were on average used for moral ends, but the invalidity of that claim does not imply that its opposite is true. Guns are used to attack, and used to defend; guns are used for deadly purposes, and guns are used for recreational purposes. Guns are carried by gangbangers who blight neighborhoods and by police officers who defend those same neighborhoods. The overwhelming majority of guns are made not for use, but for resale. I myself would not hazard a guess as to where on the cosmic moral scale the preponderance of firearms fall.

    What I can tell you is that no firearm that I've ever owned has ever been fired at a person while I owned it, let alone drawn human blood. I have owned one Russian infantry rifle in particular (a Mosin 91/30, Izhevsk arsenal, 1942 production date, showing obvious traits of wartime production) that was almost certainly fired at Germans. Was the use of this rifle in Russia by Russians to shoot at invading Germans a moral act, or an immoral one? It's difficult to say. To the degree that the rifle was used in the service of Joseph Stalin, I'd have to call it immoral. To the degree that the rifle was used by a people to defend their homeland against invasion, well, I guess it was moral.

    But now that rifle belongs to a collector I know in North Carolina, and the last thing it shot was a paper target. I can live with that.

  10. #50
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    Oberon makes very valid points on this issue.

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