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Thread: Excuse the mess

  1. #31
    Senior Member Clover's Avatar
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    Well my room is usually very messy, but as long as there are no undergarments on the floor or 3 day old plates of half eaten food on my desk, I don't really feel the need to apologize. I have never been asked to excuse messes in other people's houses, so I guess it doesn't bother me.

  2. #32
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    Gawd, you people have such a distrust of Fe it's scary.

    Maybe the people who say it genuinely feel their home isn't presentable. Maybe they don't want you to see the two bags of trash sitting in the kitchen on the dishes in the sink. It may not be a lot to you and you may not think of it as messy but maybe, just maybe it is to them. Don't automatically assume they're being ingenuine because your home is comparatively a pigsty.

    I don't mind when people say it to me, no biggie. I usually make a joke out of it.
    Hmm... I'm not sure you've grokked my position quite right... unless you're not addressing me particularly there...?

    I'm thinking that worrying isn't a positive emotion, generally speaking - anxiety, worry, insecurity (will they reject/judge/dislike me because of my house?) - these are not things people enjoy feeling. So... I'm trying to dismantle the mental processes that lead them there, both on the part of the people who have, presumably, given them the experiences that have created that anxiety, and on the part of the person feeling the anxiety themselves.

    Like, in that moment when the person's apologizing to me for their 'messy' home, and it's either me saying 'no it's fine, you should see mine!' with a good natured laugh, or someone else saying 'hmph, well, why didn't you clean up before I got here?' or not saying it maybe but making clear through other physical cues (looks of disgust, contempt etc) that they ARE judging... well, what's actually going on, psychologically?

    But I'm also allowing for the possibility that NOT everyone is genuinely embarrassed about their messy pad, and that some are indeed, like Night suggested, simply boasting and showing off through a mask of false humility. Cos I find that mental process quite intriguing, too - again, in that moment, where the person's saying 'Sorry about the mess' as they gesture around their spotless showhome, knowing fully well it's impressive, and you've got either a person who isn't impressed, or one who is - not just impressed by the house, but also transferring that impression onto the person - "your house is nice therefore you must be awesome". What's really going on there?

    But also, there is the other scenario of a person who will apologize for their house being not dirty, not messy or anything like that, but simply not 'swanky' enough - whilst fully aware that the person they're talking to would give their right arm to live in such a palace.

    Again, I'm looking at these moments and wondering, wanting to take apart the psychological processes on each side, to see what the assumptions are that they're built upon, and where the influences and pressures for creating them came from.

    Sorta, social science type thing...

    And as for you Jack Flak -
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

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  3. #33
    Senior Member Chris_in_Orbit's Avatar
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    Its just not easy to not give a damn like you badass NTs. I have to say that is one quality I value in my NT friends more than anything.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris_in_Orbit View Post
    Its just not easy to not give a damn like you badass NTs. I have to say that is one quality I value in my NT friends more than anything.
    heheh...

    ----

    y'know it doesn't have to be a conspiracy theory at all... an example of the sort of process I'm thinking about here could be something like this:

    Mom encourages kid to keep their room tidy for perfectly valid, good reasons; this is achieved through praise for being tidy and reproof/punishment for being messy. Whilst this is only MEANT to convey the message 'keeping tidy is a good idea', it very possibly also transmits other, unintended messages to the kid, such as 'when you are tidy people are happy with you, it means you're a 'good girl' and people like you, but when you are messy it makes people angry/upset with you and you're a 'bad girl''.

    This kid could then go into adult life with a subconscious assumption that being messy actually makes them a bad person, makes other people think they're a bad person; an assumption that the orderliness of their external environment reflects directly onto themselves as a person as a value-judgement, so that if you have a person who is quite P-ish and, naturally, just doesn't really care that much about mess themselves and works in a kind of way that tends to make a lot of mess - this perfectly natural and valid part of themselves they might believe is actually a personality flaw, a bad point, something to be ashamed of. And worry that others who perceive it might judge them for it.

    It didn't start with anyone being particularly oppressive or malevolent, but all the same, you've got a person spending more time than is constructive, worrying about something they really shouldn't.
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

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  5. #35
    Senior Member ZiL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post

    This kid could then go into adult life with a subconscious assumption that being messy actually makes them a bad person, makes other people think they're a bad person; an assumption that the orderliness of their external environment reflects directly onto themselves as a person as a value-judgement, so that if you have a person who is quite P-ish and, naturally, just doesn't really care that much about mess themselves and works in a kind of way that tends to make a lot of mess - this perfectly natural and valid part of themselves they might believe is actually a personality flaw, a bad point, something to be ashamed of. And worry that others who perceive it might judge them for it.

    Bleh, I have these arguments with my mom. When she gets into negative moods, she'll start complaining about how our house is not clean enough like it really depresses her. I'm not sure what she is thinking exactly, but I always get the feeling that she equates messy house with "bad or lazy person" which drives me nuts because I tend to the messy side but I don't think I'm a bad person, lol. I'd love to know as well what the underlying thoughts/feelings behind that are exactly. I don't want someone coming into my house and judging deeper aspects of my personality based on the look of my house alone, but I know some people do it. My grandpa is one. My mom probably has some childhood stress about it thanks to him.

    Granted, when people who don't know me as well come over, I make sure to straighten up a bit - I do want it to at least look respectable and comfortable for a guest. But my house will never be spotless, and I can't compete with those people whose houses are the epitome of cleanly perfection. And I don't want to either.

    People can do whatever they want, I guess, I just don't like it when I feel an inordinate amount of judgement coming my way just because I have some books laying on my dinner table.

    I never really think about it when people say, "sorry for my mess," but I can see where you're coming from. I guess it would only bother me if the person that said it was of those types from whom I feel extreme judgement, because then I might automatically interpret it as a subtle jab at me.

  6. #36
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    It just me, or is it like, really annoying to anyone else when people say that?

    Like, you visit somebody's house for the first time, and they've never seen your house, and they're apologizing for the 'inadequacies' of their house.

    It just really gets on my nerves, cos I figure, y'know, if I bring someone to my place and start apologizing for it, for all I know their place could be ten times worse. They could be thinking "Shit, if he thinks this is bad, I'd better not invite him to my place!"

    I was put in this frame of mind when my daughter just told me about her friend, whose house she visited at the weekend for the first time. This is a big house in the country; her parents are loaded. So she's whining and apologizing to my kid the whole time about how small and 'poky' her bedroom is, and how she's sorry that they haven't got much room to play and her old bedroom was much bigger.

    This, in the knowledge that my kid lives in a tiny appartment, the entire floor area of which is probably only twice the size of this kid's 'poky' bedroom.

    I just wonder y'know, I mean I know they're just kids, but I've seen adults do this too. And I wonder, why do they do it? Do they REALLY think their place is a mess? (it's nearly always very houseproud people whose homes look like showhomes to me) And do they not ever think about how it might make the other person feel about THEIR home?

    Thoughts anyone? Do you apologize for your home? Do you know anyone who does? What do you make of it? And, more importantly, should I return myself to the factory to have my Fe settings returned to their proper place?
    no problem man, I was born for mess
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  7. #37
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    My apartment is a mess. I like it clean, and I clean when I need to, but I can trash the place very quickly if I'm focused on other things for a few days. If someone was coming over now, I'd want to clean up, mostly because it's a pain in the ass when you have to step around things on the floor and sit on popcorn kernels. I barely manage to do it myself, so I wouldn't expect a guest to do it.

    Am I embarrassed? Maybe a little bit. I judge myself on what I am capable of, and not on what my current priorities are. When I'm alone, my mess doesn't mean that much to me. When I'm with other people, my priorities shift.

    I wouldn't be embarrassed about a "lived in" look. My messes are beyond "lived in". It's either super clean or trashed. There's no used coffee mug on the coffee table. It's more like a dish of ice cream that I ate 4 days ago and then used as an ash tray. I think my "lived in" look is clean, suitable, and happy for visitors. It's my "died in" look that I try not to let other people experience for themselves.

    Still, I don't apologize. I just state it as a fact. "My place is a mess, let me move some things around for you."
    "When a resolute young fellow steps up the great bully, the world, and takes him boldly by the beard, he is often surprised to find that it comes off in his hand, and that it was only tied on to scare away the timid adventurers." - Ralph Waldo Emerson

  8. #38
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    It only bugs me when it's people whose bathroom looks like a filling station that hasn't been cleaned since the 1970s.

    The only time I've really appologized was when my cat had hyperthyroidism and she was sheding like a bucket of fur an hour.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    heheh...

    ----

    y'know it doesn't have to be a conspiracy theory at all... an example of the sort of process I'm thinking about here could be something like this:

    Mom encourages kid to keep their room tidy for perfectly valid, good reasons; this is achieved through praise for being tidy and reproof/punishment for being messy. Whilst this is only MEANT to convey the message 'keeping tidy is a good idea', it very possibly also transmits other, unintended messages to the kid, such as 'when you are tidy people are happy with you, it means you're a 'good girl' and people like you, but when you are messy it makes people angry/upset with you and you're a 'bad girl''.
    To my mother, a clean (military clean) room was a point of highest moral purity. Not keeping to her standards was also an emotional betrayal of her, one of the deepest. She says her father had them clean out the garage once a month, like take everything out and clean the floor. There could be no trash or dust in the trashcans at the end of the day either.

    I never was able to make her standards and good grief I got knocked around for it.

    This kid could then go into adult life with a subconscious assumption that being messy actually makes them a bad person, makes other people think they're a bad person; an assumption that the orderliness of their external environment reflects directly onto themselves as a person as a value-judgement, so that if you have a person who is quite P-ish and, naturally, just doesn't really care that much about mess themselves and works in a kind of way that tends to make a lot of mess - this perfectly natural and valid part of themselves they might believe is actually a personality flaw, a bad point, something to be ashamed of. And worry that others who perceive it might judge them for it.
    To say the least.

  10. #40
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Eugh. I hate this. My mother does this all the time.

    I tend to just say, "Please try not to step on anything. A lot of my mess is made up of very important works in progress."
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

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